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Thread: Ballistic PPE Gear for Civilians

  1. #1
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Ballistic PPE Gear for Civilians

    I was browsing around Blackhawk's website and noticed that Ballistic vests, Helmets, plates and so on are not for sale to civilians. Now I'm not saying that I want to rock the full battle rattle every time I leave my home, but why are civilians forbidden to own this equipment? Is this a Blackhawk policy? Is there a law somewhere that says we're not allowed to have this protection available to us should there be a breakdown of law and order. I want to know that should law and order disintegrate I'll be able survive a round or two while I'm dishing it out as well.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 08-14-2010 at 10:38 PM.

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    Must be a company policy.

    I will have to look into this -- if this is really a firm policy, I'm sending back my new Blackhawk holster and mag pouches. If I'm not good enough to buy armor from them, then I'm not good enough to buy any of the rest of their stuff.

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    Where did you read that you can't own armor? You can buy level 4 plates are hahns military surplus...

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    Are you a want to be a cop? You looking to confront cops? Are you a criminal? No one needs PPE except for cops and military.

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    are you an anti kwik??

    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Are you a want to be a cop? You looking to confront cops? Are you a criminal? No one needs PPE except for cops and military.
    a law abiding citizen has the same right to self defense, against getting shot!
    as we do to carry guns to deter and protect against crime.

    it dont make no sense to be saying that only cops get to wear protection.
    the OP was clear in saying he would want it during a shtf sitiation.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Are you a want to be a cop? You looking to confront cops? Are you a criminal? No one needs PPE except for cops and military.
    This my friend makes you sound very, very ignorant. Please re-read the original post and you will understand why I believe civilians should be allowed to own this equipment.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Is there a law somewhere that says we're not allowed to have this protection available to us should there be a breakdown of law and order. I want to know that should law and order disintegrate I'll be able survive a round or two while I'm dishing it out as well.
    You sound paranoid. You probably own more than one gun too. Do you stockpile ammo?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    You sound paranoid. You probably own more than one gun too. Do you stockpile ammo?
    What you call paranoid I call good planning, Yes I own more than one gun, they all have situationally appropriate uses,. Yes I have a ready supply of ammunition should the **** hit the fan, and no it's not all in the same place. There will come a time when I have a food and watter cache as well, but I have enough in my home to last me about 3 months if rationed correctly.

    You say I'm paranoid, and I think of all the money we've borrowed from China and suddenly it seems a little more prudent. Perhaps war will not be the cause, perhaps a natural disaster. There are infinite reasons to prepare for the worst but it's the reasons that we can't think of that make it a good idea to do so. The only ones who has something to loose are those that think it couldn't happen, and don't.

    That being said, please go crawl back under your bridge.

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    Pretty sure there is a law because every single site I can find limits armor to active LE/MIL. I think it's a federal law.

  10. #10
    TN-treefrmr
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    Kwik

    It is people like you that make people want PPE.
    It is not Paranoia if everyone is out to get you!
    I saw you had posted on this thread and wanted to add my thoughts.
    For those asking about PPE:
    http://www.bulletproofme.com/
    Excerpt:
    For police, security, military, and law-abiding civilians, we are light on "eye candy" marketing glitz, but heavy on what you need to know about ballistic protection and 'bullet-proof' vests.
    Just to set the record straight. I just Googled and found the site that I referenced.
    I saw Kwik was entertaining you and joined in. I do want to say hello to people from Nevada where I retired from in 2006. So! Hi Y'ALL from Tennessee!

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    Although sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet I'm sure kwikrnu is being sarcastic.

    Afterall he's the guy that has been known to open carry AK47, and from his other posts he must have a tremendously large collection of guns.

    Body armor is legal to own in most places in the United States, although I believe Federal law restricts felons from ownership.

    I hate it when companies restrict sale of stuff that is legal for civilians to the government. That's one thing I don't like about the TASER company... a lot of their products are not sold to civilians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Are you a want to be a cop? You looking to confront cops? Are you a criminal? No one needs PPE except for cops and military.
    That's the same argument the lefties use about guns. I own armor, believe me after Katrina, I was glad for it.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

  13. #13
    Regular Member john-in-reno's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by VFORVENDETTA View Post
    haha
    How do you protect against a ar-15 rounds thru the head?

    Dont be in front of it?
    Duck?

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    hey Eric, is that you????

    Quote Originally Posted by VFORVENDETTA View Post
    How thick of steel or aluminum would you need to make a chest/back plate for handgun rounds?
    two layers of aluminum foil, shiny side out should be enough!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Such a breastplate would be highly uncomfortable and dangerous.

    It might protect you but it would promote ricochets.

    You can get heavy jackets that can stop most handgun rounds. They are uncomfortable, but not nearly as heavy as a big peice of steel.

    To answer your question though... depends on the round, and the type of metal the breastplate was made out of. I have seen as little as a 1/6th inch steel plate stop a 9mm, don't know what kind of steel it was though, and I don't know if I would trust it that thin myself.

    Give me a few minutes and I can get a couple links to body armor.

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    This has been proven to stop just about anything... I am not sure they will sell to civilians though, but it is the best out right now IMO.

    http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

    Military IOTV and things like that come from these guys...

    http://www.pointblankarmor.com/

    You will probably want a "Level II" armor system, anything after that and they start getting uncomfortable. Most "Level III-A" armor is heavy, bulky, and not very flexible... I don't know of any 3-A+ armor besides the dragon skin that is flexible at all.

    Best of all real body armor absorbs the impact force and doesn't deflect it so there is very little chance of a ricochet.
    Last edited by WilliamRB; 08-15-2010 at 07:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TN-treefrmr View Post
    It is people like you that make people want PPE.
    It is not Paranoia if everyone is out to get you!
    I saw you had posted on this thread and wanted to add my thoughts.
    For those asking about PPE:
    http://www.bulletproofme.com/
    Excerpt:
    For police, security, military, and law-abiding civilians, we are light on "eye candy" marketing glitz, but heavy on what you need to know about ballistic protection and 'bullet-proof' vests.

    Just to set the record straight. I just Googled and found the site that I referenced.
    I saw Kwik was entertaining you and joined in. I do want to say hello to people from Nevada where I retired from in 2006. So! Hi Y'ALL from Tennessee!
    Good reference, sir. Some law enforcement friends of mine told me about the site.

    Protection is also worth considering for use on an unsupervised shooting range.
    Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

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    You don't want Dangon Skin, there is a reason the Military banned it. The disks have a low melting point, so when exposed to fire(IED mainly) they will melt. There were many a soldier that had Drangon Skin burned into them.

    Another reason is that the way it is constructed, the adhesive holding the disks weakens around 120 degrees. That means you get some disks floating around inside the vest, rendering it useless.

    There are other shortfalls of it, but it is a very good idea, once perfected it will be the next generation of body armor. But for now nothing beats a multi hit level IV plate.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly, I was cleaning the ballistic vest the army issued me and when I removed the soft armor inserts they disclosed that they were rated to withstand 9mm pistol rounds and the effectiveness of the armor degraded after successive impacts. The hard plates that are issued for combat operations disclosed that they were effective at withstanding up to three 7.62 NATO rounds.

    I also remember having a pretty lengthy discussion with my platoon sergeant once that the Army really only intends for the soft armor inserts to protect against shrapnel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerfish View Post
    You don't want Dangon Skin, there is a reason the Military banned it. The disks have a low melting point, so when exposed to fire(IED mainly) they will melt. There were many a soldier that had Drangon Skin burned into them.

    Another reason is that the way it is constructed, the adhesive holding the disks weakens around 120 degrees. That means you get some disks floating around inside the vest, rendering it useless.

    There are other shortfalls of it, but it is a very good idea, once perfected it will be the next generation of body armor. But for now nothing beats a multi hit level IV plate.
    Other than those of us going to Iraq and Afghanistan, those situations are few and "very" far between. As a matter of fact last I checked the states had a grand total of 0 IED attacks. I never heard of the "120 degree" rule and it sounds suspiciously like a rumor. Hell, I just left the sandbox last month and the SF guys all wore it still, good enough for me.

    EDIT: I just looked it up and there is Army backing of the 120 deg rule on these vests, but there is quite a bit of controversy around it. I think I might buy one and stick it in the oven just to find out.


    As for the plate, sure, they are the be-all-end-all of the protective vest but are extremely uncomfortable, heavy, and impractical for civilian use outside of WW3 on US soil.

    The point is that it's the highest level of body protection a civilian would ever want or need.

    If I remember correctly, I was cleaning the ballistic vest the army issued me and when I removed the soft armor inserts they disclosed that they were rated to withstand 9mm pistol rounds and the effectiveness of the armor degraded after successive impacts. The hard plates that are issued for combat operations disclosed that they were effective at withstanding up to three 7.62 NATO rounds.

    I also remember having a pretty lengthy discussion with my platoon sergeant once that the Army really only intends for the soft armor inserts to protect against shrapnel.
    That's right. The plates are a ceramic and they shatter when shot which is why they are only good for an average of 3 rounds. Problem with protecting from shrapnel is that it varies wildly in shape and velocity, the vest they give you will stop most of the small high-speed bits, problem is that the bigger and/or slower pieces will go right through either because of inertia or simply because they are not moving fast enough for the armor to properly function. Same reason people can still stab you through your armor.
    Last edited by WilliamRB; 08-16-2010 at 03:57 AM.

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    As a matter of fact last I checked the states had a grand total of 0 IED attacks.
    Notable improvised explosive device attackers and attacks in the U.S.

    Ted Kaczynsky, aka the Unabomber, numerous IEDs through the US Mail

    Eric Rudolph, aka the Olympic Park Bomber, numerous IEDs

    Philadelphia Police Dept., helicopter-dropped IED on the MOVE house

    1993 World Trade Center, IED "truck bomb"

    just a few U.S. IED incidents off the top of my head

  22. #22
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    Read this http://www.bulletproofme.com/Legal_Terms_of_Sale.shtml

    To OP: Civilians are NOT banned from owning armor. You can buy plates capable of sustaining multiple 7.62 rounds, plate carriers, and soft armor at bulletproofme.com.

    /endthread
    Last edited by Bravo_Sierra; 08-16-2010 at 02:34 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    Are you a want to be a cop? You looking to confront cops? Are you a criminal? No one needs PPE except for cops and military.
    There's something ironic in a guy who carries a gun telling me what I do and don't need . . .

  24. #24
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    Having just visited their site and trying the "Contact Us" link, I'm probably going to take back the Blackhawk stuff because their website sucks.

    Any company that hides their contact information behind several layers of Javajunk and Flashcrap is trying to avoid being contacted, and I don't feel good about trusting my life to their products.
    Last edited by DVC; 08-16-2010 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Notable improvised explosive device attackers and attacks in the U.S.

    Ted Kaczynsky, aka the Unabomber, numerous IEDs through the US Mail

    Eric Rudolph, aka the Olympic Park Bomber, numerous IEDs

    Philadelphia Police Dept., helicopter-dropped IED on the MOVE house

    1993 World Trade Center, IED "truck bomb"

    just a few U.S. IED incidents off the top of my head
    ...alright, technically almost any bomb is improvised from something, therefore just about any bombing ever committed in the US is using an IED. I'll give you that in the most literal definition of the term.

    You know what I was talking about though. Name a single incident of a car rolling down the road and just being blown up for no reason, or some guy ramming a random quick-e mart with an explosive truck. How about a shape charge on a highway overpass to disable semi-trucks? Pipe bombs being thrown over fences in suburbia?

    I will consent that a number of IED attacks have happened in the US, however, I have never hear of any specifically targeting civilians outside of large POIs.

    My fault for not clarifying in the first place, rule number 1 of internet debates.

    They still qualify for being extremely rare none the less.

    -->Back on the subject though, I would still use Dragon Skin in any situation I found myself in. It's the most practical solution for defeating a wide array of threats, even if it does melt if your set on fire... a good idea would be to take it off in that situation.

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