CCW traffic stop question

sirtirithon · Aug 15, 2010

I've got a question since I have never been pulled over while CC'ing or OC'ing. Say I am at work (I am not allowed to carry at work ) and driving a state vehicle (I work for the state of WA) when I get pulled over for a tail light out, etc. The LEO run's my DL number and see's that I have a CCP. How would it go down? I'm assuming I would be asked if I was carrying or not. If I say that I'm not, does the LEO have to respect my answer and let it go at that and just continue on with the stop? or do they have the right to frisk me? I'm sure you understand where I'm going with this question....I'd like some input from folks who have been pulled over while carrying.

SayWhat · Aug 15, 2010

the one time I've been pulled over (speeding) the cop didn't say squat. just got my license, ran it wrote my ticket and told me to slow down. never asked if I was or wasn't carrying.. didn't get me out of the car.. nothing like that at all.

j2l3 · Aug 15, 2010

To "frisk" you, which is a detainment, they would need RAS (reasonable, articulable suspicion) that you have committed a crime, are committing a crime or are about to committ a crime. A traffic stop, as you describe, does not meet that requirement.

Now, does that mean it will never happen? Ummmm no, some LEO will do what they want, regardless of the law. Most will not bother you.

Bill45 · Aug 15, 2010

I have been pulled over many times (25+) over the years, most recently on August 9th of this year, and have never been asked any questions regarding carrying.

Yes, I drive fast. 99% of the time I get off with a mild lecture or a swap of war stories and get sent on my way with a "drive carefully" comment.

The one time a question was asked was when I was rear ended on Hywy 16 and the officer noticed my permit in my wallet when I was taking my license out. He asked if I was armed, I said I was and that was all that was said.

If there is a notice on the computer of having a CCL then the officer does not think it is worth mentioning.

Jeff Hayes · Aug 15, 2010

Possable answers

1. I dont have anything unawful in the car

2. Why would you ask me that question

3. I have nothing in my car that will harm you

4. I dont answer any questions with out my lawyer present is my personal favorite that I have used in the past.

5. Silence, just dont answer

6. Yes I am, its in my waist band at 3 o'clock would you like to see my permit

I dont believe any of the above answers rise to the level of RAS of a crime. What ever you do do not lie to a LEO that is a crime in most if not all states.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, do your own research

ghosthunter · Aug 16, 2010

I too have been stopped many times, I have had a cpl for over 30 years. I have never been asked once if I am armed.
And if you saw my truck you would know you were talking to a guy who was most likely armed.

The only time I would declare my firearm during a traffic stop would be if the officer asked me to get out. Although there is no law saying you have to declare your firearm that I know of, I would do it as not to surprise him.

sudden valley gunner · Aug 16, 2010

NavyLT said:
You need to read RCW 46.64.015:

Notice how many times the word arrest is used. During a routine traffic stop, if the officer has reasonable cause to believe you are armed, such as you tell him, the officer has the right under Terry v. Ohio and other related cases, to frisk you for weapons and remove and hold found weapons until the detainment is over.

Carrying a gun in a state vehicle is not a crime and the officer would have no reason to report it. They do not enforce employee policy, they enforce statutes.

Just an interesting thought, many traffic violations are civil, not criminal would this make a difference?

Citizen · Aug 16, 2010

NavyLT said:
SNIP Carrying a gun in a state vehicle is not a crime and the [police] officer would have no reason to report it. They do not enforce employee policy, they enforce statutes.

I agree the officer would have no job-related reason for reporting it (I think).

But, I would not put it past an anti-gun LEO to look for a way to get word through to the driver's supervisor.

Just4protection · Aug 16, 2010

I blew a fuse on my truck, all running lights went out expect for the headlights so I didn't know. Got pulled over on 405 North. Pulled off the Carpool exit at 128th in Kirkland. Stater asked if I had any weapons in the truck. I told him "I have a CPL and I have a .32 on my ankle." He asked if I would be alright with him holding the weapon for the duration of the stop. I told that I was okay with it if he would be okay with me opening the door so he could see what I was doing. I opened the door and pulled my pant leg up. I asked him if he wanted to pull it out or if I should? He said I could, so I unsnapped it and used 2 fingers to pull it out and hand it over. No ticket, quick stop, he returned my gun with it completely unloaded and even held his flashlight while I changed the fuse.

swatspyder · Aug 16, 2010

Just4protection said:
I blew a fuse on my truck, all running lights went out expect for the headlights so I didn't know. Got pulled over on 405 North. Pulled off the Carpool exit at 128th in Kirkland. Stater asked if I had any weapons in the truck. I told him "I have a CPL and I have a .32 on my ankle." He asked if I would be alright with him holding the weapon for the duration of the stop. I told that I was okay with it if he would be okay with me opening the door so he could see what I was doing. I opened the door and pulled my pant leg up. I asked him if he wanted to pull it out or if I should? He said I could, so I unsnapped it and used 2 fingers to pull it out and hand it over. No ticket, quick stop, he returned my gun with it completely unloaded and even held his flashlight while I changed the fuse.

I wired up a pair of driving lights in my car and ran the line for the switch to one of my corner lights. The fuse under my dash blew on my car and my driving lights, rear lights and front corner lights went dead. This was on I-5 at about 12AM. I knew right then that the front lights went out, but had no idea until I got home that my rear lights were completely out also. Replaced the fuse and there hasn't been another issue... Yet.

HK_dave · Aug 16, 2010

been lurking a while but though i'd chip into this.

i have a LONG history of traffic stops. i first got my CWL (Concealed *Weapons* License back then) in 1988.

on the first stop the trooper asked if i had any weapons in the car, and i answered yes. he asked to see my permit and i showed it to him and that was it. no ticket.

2nd stop on the way home from the range, the trooper came up on the right side of my car and saw my used targets in the front seat. we spent about 15 minutes right there on the side of I-5 talking about guns and he let me go. never asked if armed or for a permit.

3rd stop was Kent police. asked if i was armed and to see a permit. took my dl and the gun back to his car. returned with my DL and gun unloaded and let me go.

4th stop was after a day of shooting up around Gold Bar and while avoiding an accident i slid sideways thru an intersection at about 30mph and came to stop right in front of two troopers sitting on the shoulder. after seeing +-20 rifles in the car (pistols were in the trunk), we had a nice chat and they let me go.

i had a 5th police/gun related interaction, but not driving related.

if it really does come up on their computer that i have a CPL, then 99% of them don't care.

so overall, i've not had a bad experience with cops and my guns. but admittedly i haven't OC'd yet.

joejoejoe · Aug 16, 2010

"I do not give you permission to search me." If he asks you to get out of the car, keep your gun in the car and lock the doors. Do not give permission to search. Only verbally refuse, never physically refuse. If he continues with his "search," all evidence will be thrown out in court.

flexyourrights.org

Joe~

sirtirithon · Aug 16, 2010

Thanks for all of the replies. It sounds like I wouldn't even be asked if I was carrying, especially in a state vehicle on work time. And the odds of me being stopped are slim to none, considering I take extra care to obide by all traffic laws on work time. This scenerio is the only one I can think of where I could get into trouble for carrying at work.

I have never carried at work but there have been many instances where I wish I was. I have a pocket pistol with a wallet style holster so being "made" is not an issue. I do however spend a lot of time traveling in a state vehicle with co-workers and having an LEO discover my CCW in front of them would not be in my best interests!

HvyMtl · Aug 16, 2010

I am unsure about your state, but the state vehicles here (Tennessee) are obvious, as they have different plates from "civilians"and are typically the same vehicle. Generally, LEO does not pull these vehicles over.

Lammo · Aug 16, 2010

sudden valley gunner said:
Just an interesting thought, many traffic violations are civil, not criminal would this make a difference?

I would have to go back and look through the amendments but I think this may not have been updated when the traffic code was largely decriminalized in 1979. See RCW 46.63.010 and .020. Prior to that date the reference to "arrest" would have been correct.

bennie1986 · Aug 16, 2010

I was pulled over for speeding and when the cop asked me for my registration I had to ask him to get it because my gun was in the glove box on top of it. The cop dropped my mag and engaged the slide lock then set it on the roof of my car. The cop ran my info came back told me to slow down and put the gun on the passenger seat and said to not load it until he was back to his car. I was never asked about my CPL.

amlevin · Aug 16, 2010

NavyLT said:
Let's put it this way. Cop pulls in behind you and turns on lights and beeps the siren and you don't stop. What happens? Let's say at that point you run from them. What charge will you face?

Ah, that would be a felony, LT. I believe it is now called "Felony Eluding".

RCW 46.61.024
Attempting to elude police vehicle — Defense — License revocation.

*** CHANGE IN 2010 *** (SEE 6239-S.SL) ***

(1) Any driver of a motor vehicle who willfully fails or refuses to immediately bring his vehicle to a stop and who drives his vehicle in a reckless manner while attempting to elude a pursuing police vehicle, after being given a visual or audible signal to bring the vehicle to a stop, shall be guilty of a class C felony. The signal given by the police officer may be by hand, voice, emergency light, or siren. The officer giving such a signal shall be in uniform and the vehicle shall be equipped with lights and sirens.

Please note that "Class C Felony" part. That could mean jail time.

The only defense allowed:

2) It is an affirmative defense to this section which must be established by a preponderance of the evidence that: (a) A reasonable person would not believe that the signal to stop was given by a police officer; and (b) driving after the signal to stop was reasonable under the circumstances.

This of course has no bearing on the original question though.

In response to whether one HAS to offer that they are carrying and have a CPL, not in Washington. Remember though any courtesy shown an officer who has you stopped just might yield a courtesy in return. You could hold to strictly what is required by law and they you might in return have the officer doing all he can get away with under the law. You may not be arrested or detained but you may spend a lot more time than necessary waiting for him to finish his paperwork. For example, lets say that 30 minutes or more might be considered "being detained". He may spend 29 minutes before returning your license. You may be "free to go" but do you want to drive away with your DL still in his possession?

BigDave · Aug 17, 2010

joejoejoe said:
"I do not give you permission to search me." If he asks you to get out of the car, keep your gun in the car and lock the doors. Do not give permission to search. Only verbally refuse, never physically refuse. If he continues with his "search," all evidence will be thrown out in court.

flexyourrights.org

Joe~

If you are asked to step out of your vehicle and you are armed you take it out and lay it in the seat and lock and close the door, how do you think that will go over when the officer sees you removing your gun?

You will likely be asked if you are armed before the request to exit the vehicle and since there is already a reason to pull you over then officer safety could come into play and trying to resist letting him have your weapon will likely put you in danger.

sudden valley gunner · Aug 17, 2010

amlevin said:
Ah, that would be a felony, LT. I believe it is now called "Felony Eluding".

RCW 46.61.024
Attempting to elude police vehicle — Defense — License revocation.

*** CHANGE IN 2010 *** (SEE 6239-S.SL) ***

(1) Any driver of a motor vehicle who willfully fails or refuses to immediately bring his vehicle to a stop and who drives his vehicle in a reckless manner while attempting to elude a pursuing police vehicle, after being given a visual or audible signal to bring the vehicle to a stop, shall be guilty of a class C felony. The signal given by the police officer may be by hand, voice, emergency light, or siren. The officer giving such a signal shall be in uniform and the vehicle shall be equipped with lights and sirens.

Please note that "Class C Felony" part. That could mean jail time.

The only defense allowed:

2) It is an affirmative defense to this section which must be established by a preponderance of the evidence that: (a) A reasonable person would not believe that the signal to stop was given by a police officer; and (b) driving after the signal to stop was reasonable under the circumstances.

This of course has no bearing on the original question though.

In response to whether one HAS to offer that they are carrying and have a CPL, not in Washington. Remember though any courtesy shown an officer who has you stopped just might yield a courtesy in return. You could hold to strictly what is required by law and they you might in return have the officer doing all he can get away with under the law. You may not be arrested or detained but you may spend a lot more time than necessary waiting for him to finish his paperwork. For example, lets say that 30 minutes or more mights be considered "being detained". He may spend 29 minutes before returning your license. You may be "free to go" but do you want to drive away with your DL still in his possession?

This just proves this cop in this scenario is a jerk. And yes some do this. I won't compromise my beliefs because of this. And it is my belief that when most people "cooperate" it enables, enforces and justifies this uncalled for behavior in the LEO's mind. I have been pulled over for some odd reason, quite a bit the last few years, the firearm quite visible in most cases and noticed by most LEO ,(Trooper, Skagit, Whatcom deputies) was not an issue and I never volunteered info. And don't forget the power of complaints, officers can and do build up a "jacket" that will catch superiors eyes. One or two complaints can just be disgruntled folk, but if an officer that is a jerk gets lots of complaints he/she may be dealt with. I seen it happen.

Matter of fact, coming back from the Spokane meet I was pulled over the trooper came to the passenger window, I only rolled down the window enough a crack, he asked if I would roll it down further I said only enough to hand out my documents if he requested them. He shined his light right on my side arm then my face,and scanned the interior of the car with it, asked for my documents came back asked if I have been drinking, I said no, he said, he thought I was weaving, and asked if I could make it home. I said yes and definitely now that he got my attention and he let me go.

CCW traffic stop question

sirtirithon

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SayWhat

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j2l3

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Bill45

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Jeff Hayes

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