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Thread: Pathetic Police at Stilly Festival of the River

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    Pathetic Police at Stilly Festival of the River

    Well, rode the bike down to the festival today with the wife after swimming in our hole. Threw my PF9 into a IWB on my shorts (no shirt) before we went. Was hot, and the PF9 is annoying in a pocket of my shorts. While we were there two police came up to us about 40 minutes in and one said (grabbed me by the arm actually, and got all official sounding) "Excuse me, is that open carry or concealed?"
    "Open I would say. Why?"
    "Well, it's inside your waistband, so it's not open and it's not concealed. You need to either cover it up or put it in a holster like mine (shows off his gun and holster). Do you have a CPL?"
    "It doesn't matter, I am open carrying. If you think it's concealed, then yes I have a CPL."
    "Well it's not concealed because I can see it and it's not open carrying because you don't have it in a holster. You can't do that."
    (I am thinking.. oh man, are you kidding? I start to laugh.)
    "Uh, ok. What law says that? I don't remember reading anything about not open and not concealed carry..."
    "I'm sure it's in one of the laws, it probably says on the back of your CPL card."
    "No, I have not seen that said anywhere in the laws. I can carry it how I want. I have a CPL if you think it's concealed." (They were of no interest to look at it or ID)
    "What kind of holster is that? What did it say on the package when you bought it?"
    "Uncle mikes inside the waistband."
    "No, what did it say? It said concealed. Now you need to put it in your pocket or cover up or we are going to make you leave."
    "I can't just pull out my gun in public. Are you kidding?"
    "It's okay, were right here."
    "Alright, whatever makes you feel better (laughing at him. I have a pocket holster in my pocket.) I'll grab it by the grip and put it in my pocket, alright. (I pull it slowly and put it in my pocket holster, slip it into my pocket.)"
    "Thanks. that's better."
    "Does that make you feel better?"
    "Yes. (They walk off)"

    This was in the middle of a bunch of stands. That was what I could remember. I didn't feel like making a big stand and making too much of an arse of myself, so I made fun of them as they looked like total A-holes to everyone.

    We came back later and I took my G20, but didn't see them. No one else seemed to care the whole time. Whatever.
    Last edited by n16ht5; 08-16-2010 at 03:27 AM.

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    "Am I being detained or am I free to go?"...... "Im not being detained?"......."Well then I wish to end this voluntary interaction now"
    "I respectfully thank you for your opinion and advice and bid you good day sir"
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 08-16-2010 at 07:52 AM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Yeah, sorry to say this bro, but you pretty much punked-out there. Tell them that you want to see their supervisor and show you where there is any law that says you have to have your gun in an Outside the Wasteband holster to be open carrying.

  4. #4
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    Police folk are not good for your blood pressure.
    Well not mine any hoo. LOL
    Hope they went back to school.
    Dave

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    I think you did well... You gave them a little run for the $$. The only thing I would have done is get names and contact a supervisor later.

    There are times, even when OC'ing or CC'ing, that even though we carry for the cause, we also carry because it's just what we do, and its in our blood. There are times where you don't feel like going down "that road" again with another individual / police / manager etc.

    Kudos.

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    IMHO, there is not a more poorly informed group of people at large than LEO's. Once they get a badge, they seem to be able to make it up as they go along. Unfortunate. What'd be cool is if, each time they were wrong, they had to pay. Say, a day's wages just for sake of discussion. THEN there might be more time and effort given to knowing WTF they are talking about. As it is, color of authority seems to be sufficient.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Not here to judge but they would have had two choices legally leave me alone or illegally detain arrest me.

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I don't know if I am ready to put an arrest on my record. Last time the police told me something that was wrong, I contacted the Sheriff and he apologized to me and scheduled a training session for his officers. More power to ya if you are willing to go the extra mile. Maybe one day I will be man enough to take that step. Just like any movement forward with our rights, it's a fight.

    Joe~

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=n16ht5;1332272"What kind of holster is that? What did it say on the package when you bought it?"
    "Uncle mikes inside the waistband."
    "No, what did it say? It said concealed. Now you need to put it in your pocket or cover up or we are going to make you leave."[/QUOTE]

    to think I've been following the the RCW'S, when it fact it's the manufactures packaging I'd best be obeying.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Wouldn't forcing you to leave be a violation of your Fourth Amendment rights?

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    I guess I should have taken it all the way. I just didn't want to look like an jerk as a carrier in front of all of the people. The police made themselves to be pretty huge a holes by the time they walked off. Next time I get hassled in public I won't let it go. Thanks for the input guys.

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    Those LEOs would be funny if they weren't so pathetically ignorant.

    I had a run in myself with the local Renton PD this past Saturday. It was a traffic violation; I changed lanes in front of the officer and he said I almost hit him. Still think he was in my blind spot. So he pulls me over(this is my first encounter with a LEO while open carrying) comes up to the car and I informed him I was armed; didn't know at the time that I didn't have to. I am a lefty so he would have seen it anyway. He asked for my DL, registration, and insurance. Then he informed me that he was going to remove my gun and I could have it back when we were done. I told him he DID NOT have my permission to take my gun; he ignored me. He then reached into the car, unsnapped the retention strap, unholstered my gun and laid it on the roof of the car. Then he went and did his check, came back and unloaded my gun! I told him that it is a 1911 and not to lower the hammer. He was polite and professional and so was I. At no time was I at threat to him. I can understand that it was for officer safety, but I still didn't like it and didn't appreciate him violating my 4th A rights. Unfortunately, I didn't have my recorder on, so I didn't record the conversation. Like I said, I understand why he did it; he has no way of knowing my intentions, but it still didn't feel good. Someone who is going to use a weapon against a LEO sure isn't going to inform them first. So I'll just chalk it up to experience; I wasn't going to get into an altercation and he apparently has the right to do what he did. I can tell that life while OCing is going to be interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Those LEOs would be funny if they weren't so pathetically ignorant.

    I had a run in myself with the local Renton PD this past Saturday. It was a traffic violation; I changed lanes in front of the officer and he said I almost hit him. Still think he was in my blind spot. So he pulls me over(this is my first encounter with a LEO while open carrying) comes up to the car and I informed him I was armed; didn't know at the time that I didn't have to. I am a lefty so he would have seen it anyway. He asked for my DL, registration, and insurance. Then he informed me that he was going to remove my gun and I could have it back when we were done. I told him he DID NOT have my permission to take my gun; he ignored me. He then reached into the car, unsnapped the retention strap, unholstered my gun and laid it on the roof of the car. Then he went and did his check, came back and unloaded my gun! I told him that it is a 1911 and not to lower the hammer. He was polite and professional and so was I. At no time was I at threat to him. I can understand that it was for officer safety, but I still didn't like it and didn't appreciate him violating my 4th A rights. Unfortunately, I didn't have my recorder on, so I didn't record the conversation. Like I said, I understand why he did it; he has no way of knowing my intentions, but it still didn't feel good. Someone who is going to use a weapon against a LEO sure isn't going to inform them first. So I'll just chalk it up to experience; I wasn't going to get into an altercation and he apparently has the right to do what he did. I can tell that life while OCing is going to be interesting!
    Now's a good time to start looking for a lawyer, as well as put in your request via FOIA for the officer's dashcam tapes. If he left the loaded and ready to go firearm on the roof of your vehicle after illegally depriving you of property it shows there was no fear of officer safety involved. If he ran the serial number, he performed an illegal search. A dashcam should show the first and maybe the second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    to think I've been following the the RCW'S, when it fact it's the manufactures packaging I'd best be obeying.
    Don't it make ya wanna come back with some smart-a$$ reply
    It said "made in the USA expressly to confound and confuse ignorant cops. Is it working?"
    No, really, officer, that's a direct quote!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Now's a good time to start looking for a lawyer, as well as put in your request via FOIA for the officer's dashcam tapes. If he left the loaded and ready to go firearm on the roof of your vehicle after illegally depriving you of property it shows there was no fear of officer safety involved. If he ran the serial number, he performed an illegal search. A dashcam should show the first and maybe the second.
    I appreciate the advice, but I don't have the money or time to pursue it. He did not give me a ticket, just a verbal warning. He did leave it loaded on the roof of my car, but it was out of my reach. He did not unload it until just prior to returning it to me. I don't think he ran the serial number because he didn't take it to his patrol car, at least I don't think he did. I heard him pick it up when he came back to my car, heard him rack the slide and empty the chamber. I posted about it on the South Sound OC thread here on the Washington forum. Gogodawgs said that they do have the right to do that for officer safety. It was a little upsetting because no one has ever taken my gun away from me before. I sure didn't like it even though I understand his reasoning. Until he runs my license and knows that I'm not a criminal he is going to protect himself and I don't blame him. He wants to go home at night too. I just hate that it was at the expense of my rights. If it were to happen again then I would definitely pursue it. Being new to OC, I really wasn't prepared to deal with it, other than to tell him he didn't have my permission to take it.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


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    Carry several...

    Now I carry more than one gun in the car. Sometimes 3 or more on any given day. I wonder what would happen if I said..."officer, there is one on my hip, one in the center console, one in the glove box...."

    That might be an interesting conversation for a routine traffic stop.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Don't it make ya wanna come back with some smart-a$$ reply
    It said "made in the USA expressly to confound and confuse ignorant cops. Is it working?"
    No, really, officer, that's a direct quote!
    We need a manufacture to brand a new holster as "OCEAL" I wonder if he has a Spork usage issues?

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    "IMHO, there is not a more poorly informed group of people at large than LEO's."

    Just because they carry a gun does not mean that they are informed on that topic. I recently went shooting with a cop friend of mine and a couple of his cop friends. My friend is adequately informed on firearms, but they are mostly just a tool to him, although he does like to target shoot with me on occasion. The 2nd guy is great. He is the former head of the SWAT team for a large WA county. (names withheld to protect the innocent..... )
    The third guy is a seargent with the same agency.He is a great guy too. I really like all 3 of them.
    While I was shooting my S&W 642 with Crimson Trace grips he was absolutely amazed. His exact words were..."Wow...that is so cool. I've never seen anything like that before. That is really really cool!!"
    Just proves that a lot of them consider firearms as just another tool of the trade. A rudimeantry knowledge is all that's needed to get through the job.
    However. I understand the frustration that comes through when one of them displays their ignorance of either a particular firearm or laws pertaining to such when in an official capacity. Perhaps they should teach more about the law, and firearms in the academy rather than focus so much on "staying in control" of a situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Now I carry more than one gun in the car. Sometimes 3 or more on any given day. I wonder what would happen if I said..."officer, there is one on my hip, one in the center console, one in the glove box...."

    That might be an interesting conversation for a routine traffic stop.
    Nah, in this scenario you would be REQUIRED to have a CPL (unless all unloaded) and you would also have to show it to him if he asked.

    n16ht5 could have run into Tribal Cops. Not "quite" the same as sheriff's deputies or Arlington PD when it comes to smarts.

    BTW, Only on given days? Some of us believe in every day.
    Last edited by amlevin; 08-16-2010 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Until he runs my license and knows that I'm not a criminal he is going to protect himself and I don't blame him.
    The only problem I have with that is that he left a weapon readily accessible, loaded, etc while he turned his back to you and went back to his car. If it were truly for officer safety, he should have put the gun further out of reach - on your trunk, on his hood, etc. Somewhere where you couldn't be out of the car and in possession, ready to fire, within 1.5 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Now I carry more than one gun in the car. Sometimes 3 or more on any given day. I wonder what would happen if I said..."officer, there is one on my hip, one in the center console, one in the glove box...."

    That might be an interesting conversation for a routine traffic stop.
    BTW Gogo, I would be interested if you and some others decide to do some mock LEO encounters sometime. I know that would be helpful to me as well as others in this area. Keep me informed please. Thanks!
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Well let's not forget we are not obligated to inform an officer we are armed. I am not doing anything illegal by being armed and it is not required by state law.

    Mike wrote a good article about this you search this forum, Don't be a gun Dork. I think was the title.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Well let's not forget we are not obligated to inform an officer we are armed. I am not doing anything illegal by being armed and it is not required by state law.

    Mike wrote a good article about this you search this forum, Don't be a gun Dork. I think was the title.
    Thanks SVG. I didn't know that at the time and I was nervous since it was my first encounter OC. Gogo has talked about putting together some mock LEO encounter scenarios so some of us can practice and learn how to handle them. I think that would be tremendously helpful to those of us new to OC.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    When I look back at some of my LEO encounters there are things I would have done different too. I think a practice session might be good. Even just over coffee at the next South Sound meet. Another thing I have done is every time I see or notice an officer I run basics through my head, and even then it don't come out how I planned there are always variables you can't plan for.

    Glad to have met you Ruby and to have you as a valuable asset to the open carry community.

  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    n16ht5 as to carrying in your waistband of your shorts, does this support a secure carry? I assume it does.

    Something to consider in carrying this way we need to look at case law at Spencer and Mitchell do to how they were carrying, and other circumstances to have them convicted in an unlawful display.

    I also feel we need to be good representatives of the law abiding citizen for open or concealed carry and even though it is clear they do not know the laws.
    It is better to strive for promoting good encounters while still standing our ground, instead of being a joker.

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