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Thread: Is a flap-holster (military style) concealed or open carry?

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    Is a flap-holster (military style) concealed or open carry?

    Just wondered about this when I was looking at the holster that came with my CZ-52. It's a military style holster with the flap over the top. The gun is not visible, however it seems obvious that it is a gun holster. I know some people carry with their gun in a case that might be a cell phone, or a camera, etc. so they are not obviously carrying a gun.

    So, my question, is such a holster, open-carry, or concealed carry? I'm asking about Michigan, where open carry is legal., and I already have a CPL.

    Just wondering.

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    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    Concealed carry effectively hides the fact you have a gun. In many places, if you "print" while conceal carry, you may have issues...

    IMHO, it is open carry, being safe, as the flap ensures the pistol wont move, and the trigger is well protected...

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    In CA, we consider flap holsters to be adequate UOC holsters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowalkintexan View Post
    Is a flap-holster (military style) concealed or open carry?
    Depends on the jurisdiction.

    Yes, in Wisconsin it would be 'concealed'. But it would also be a legal encasement for vehicle transport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Depends on the jurisdiction.

    Yes, in Wisconsin it would be 'concealed'. But it would also be a legal encasement for vehicle transport.
    Are you kidding me? Please post up the Wisconsin statute on this, I'm sure there are others that will want to read it. Especially since Wisconsin is 1 of 2 States still not on-board with CCW.

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    Wisconsin Statutes, § 941.23 Carrying concealed weapon and § 167.31 Safe use and ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Statutes
    § 941.23 Carrying concealed weapon.
    Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. ... History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.
    [... ]
    To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden. State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Statutes
    § 167.31 Safe use and transportation of firearms and bows.
    [ ... ]
    (2) PROHIBITIONS; MOTORBOATS AND VEHICLES; HIGHWAYS AND ROADWAYS.
    [ ... ]
    (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person may place, possess or transport a firearm, bow or crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded and encased...
    Wisconsin Statutes 'homepage' with link URL to the entire code, all thousand chapters and ten thousand sub-chapters.http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/stats.html

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    As stated previously, it all depends on jurisdiction...

    In New York *STATE* (not the CITY, so please keep the bloviating about NYC and handguns out of this discussion) the law is spelled out in the Penal Codes (400 and 265 cover firearms, inclusive of handguns.)

    In New York State, concealed is defined as *carrying upon ones person in such fashion so as to not induce panic in the general public*...

    NY Courts have deemed that to mean that if the gun is hidden by your shirt, and a reasonable person glancing at you casually cannot discern that you have a gun under the shirt, its concealed.

    On the flip side, if the gun is completely concealed in a military flap holster and the holster is completely visible, its considered open in NY State, because the holster is in the shape of a gun, and its really obvious that what its purpose is, is to carry a gun. Stick that same gun in a fanny-pack holster or a leather binocular case with a flap closure, and its concealed, because a reasonable person would not be able to determine if a gun is in the case, or binoculars, a medical diabetic kit, etc.

    And yes, if you go openly wearing a flap holster with NO GUN in it in New York State, you risk a class A felony charge of brandishment. You RISK it...not saying that you will be charged with it, but a cop WILL stop you, draw his weapon, command you do keep your hands where he can see them, command you to slowly disarm, etc. etc. etc...simply inducing fear in the general population of a gun in their midst is considered brandishment in NY State. Hell, you can point a big yellow and orange NERF dart gun at someone, and its brandishment in this stupid state.....
    Last edited by DragonLW; 08-24-2010 at 11:16 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Right

    Different states, different rules. I'm guessing, that in Michigan, it would be open carry because it is obviously a pistol, and not a camera case, cell phone case, or whatever. In other states, it would still probably be open carry. Can't think of any way that it would be considered concealed, even though alot of people probably wouldn't recognize it for what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Wisconsin Statutes 'homepage' with link URL to the entire code, all thousand chapters and ten thousand sub-chapters.http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/stats.html
    A firearm cannot be declared hidden if it's in a holster in plain view from at least 2 directions. Stupid friggin anti-gun State and their Illinois-esque law interpretations.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    It could really go either way depending on who it's being interpreted by. Yes, it's obviously a holster. But if I can't see the gun itself, is it not "hidden from common observation" and therefore concealed?

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    Thanks. There's a reason Jimmy works at Jiffy-Lube and is not a practicing attorney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
    It could really go either way depending on who it's being interpreted by. Yes, it's obviously a holster. But if I can't see the gun itself, is it not "hidden from common observation" and therefore concealed?
    Actually, I think it will be construed in whatever way works against the carrier. If the law is written, as in most States, to treat CC as what the Alabama Supreme Court called an "evil practice," the carry will be considered concealed. If the law is written to prohibit OC, the carry will be considered open. So, unless OC and CC are simultaneously lawful (such as in AL with a CPL), I recommend against that holster.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've seen posts on several boards regarding "the kid that was charged with CCW while open carrying a flap-type holster".

    Can anyone cite a court case for this?

    I can not find any actual cases of this happening. This thread seems to be the closest in origin.

    The Ohio Revised Code does not restrict open carry, but it also does not state HOW one is to open carry.

    Does the AG have an opinion on OC in a flap holster?

    Officer: "You're carrying concealed!"
    Poor schmuck: "How do you know?"
    Officer: "Because it's in that holster, in the open!"
    Poor schmuck: "Can't beat that Ohio logic."

    There are many people in SE Ohio I've have talked to that believe that to open carry, your holster must not cover the muzzle of your gun (like a speed slide). I also can not find any reason for this belief.
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    I can't cite a court case, but I'll give comments like others have done.

    I have carried my bigger handguns in fanny packs and smaller ones in leather flap "cases" (Google Sneaky Pete Holsters) on my hip in SC. In SC, one can, basically, only carry concealed in public with a "permit".

    I plan on getting an old school looking leather flap holster that also covers the magazine well of my 1911s. This way I can carry concealed without having to wear extra layers. The gun would be concealed on or about my person, as is required by SC state law (SECTION 16-23-20 Subsection b).

    My guess is I want get hassled much in SC with a fully concealed handgun in flap holster. Statutorily, in SC, carrying in a flap holster, that also covers the bottom of mag well, would be considered concealed carry.

    As others have said as well, I think it all depends on the laws where you live and if law enforcement wants to give you a hard time.

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    Does it really matter since you have a CPL? You can carry how you please.

    Only time it would come into play is if you were in a PFZ.

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    If you don't have a CHL and you OC in a flap holster, can you be charged with CCW?

    I have found posts where this is alledged to have already happened, but I can't find any proof. I don't doubt it could happen, I just want to know if it has actually already happened.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    In WA I think that it would be considered OC. I carried a 6" Colt .38 that way for years, full flap holster, (unlicensed OC is legal here) and only had one question from a Sheriff's deputy coming out of a grocery store. (hunting? answer: yep) just once many years ago...no request for CPL. Good thing too, because back then, I did not have a CPL..really didn't want one, really no need back then, the only real advantage is the stupid delay when you purchase without a CPL...and I was not in any position to be purchasing anything back then...5 daughters, couple of them in college.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    This is a strawman for the anti's and te JBT types. If a normal person can deduce that it's a holster for carrying a handgun... then obviously it's not concealed. Those who would claim it is, are the same sort of idiots who can't comprehend 'shall not be infringed' either.


    I often carry a 1911 in an M1916 holster or a Bianchi UM-84. I carry a Makarov PM in a completely enclosed DDR military holster and have carried a P-38 in a similarly enclosed WH softshell holster. None of which could be mistaken for anything other than what they are designed to contain.

    Common sense would dictate that any cop asking if you have a CCW for that already knows it's a handgun. Therefore, it can hardly be considered 'concealed' as in 'concealed from view'. Of course... JBT types like to play games with sematics and have no common sense at all. Neither do they honor their oath to support and defend the Constitution. We seem to not have many of that type in Arizona (yet).

    If anyone thinks they can 'conceal' with a flapped holster is as bad as the JBT's who claim the same. Flapped holsters are 'open carry'. Get real.

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