View Poll Results: Will you be justified in a self defense shooting?

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Thread: Are you.. Justified?

  1. #1
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    Are you.. Justified?

    You are a clerk at a gas station. A man points a gun at you and demands all the cash out of the register. His exact words are, "Give me all the money!"

  2. #2
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    I feel justified in meeting a lethal threat with annihilation.

    Since this post is by CS, though, it's probably some sort of legalise word-play trap.

  3. #3
    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    Justified

    18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.

    (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
    (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
    (a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
    (b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or


    18-1-706. Use of physical force in defense of property.

    A person is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the other person to commit theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, but he may use deadly physical force under these circumstances only in defense of himself or another as described in section 18-1-704."

    You are certainly justified in resisting (by whatever means) but you have to believe that you are in imminent danger of being killed or receiving great bodily injury to use deadly force (Having a gun shoved in your face certainly qualifies). The fact that the robber did not actually threaten the clerk's life is irrelevant. It all comes down to "reasonable ground to believe, and does believe" that one's life is in imminent danger.

    The "lesser degree of force" part is easy to establish. If someone is pointing a gun at your face you cant exactly leap over the counter and punch them or something.

  4. #4
    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    You would probably be safe as far as criminal prosecution, but depending on the store's policy, you may lose your job.

  5. #5
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Is the money in the drawer worth the risk? Justified or not.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Is the money in the drawer worth the risk? Justified or not.
    Is the potential of losing your life even if you comply worth the risk? And speaking of risk, what are your options other than drawing on a gun already leveled at you?

    Too many variables left unstated for me to even begin to speculate in this setting. In real life I would most likely be aware of the variables missing in this paper exercise, and would act as I felt was in my better (NOT best) interest.

    stay safe.

  7. #7
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    Is the money in the drawer worth the risk? Justified or not.
    What makes you think that giving him the money means he won't shoot you?

  8. #8
    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    What makes you think that giving him the money means he won't shoot you?
    What makes you think that giving him the money he won't just leave?

    Have you been in this situation? I've had close friends that have, complied and suspect left. Statistically speaking I don't know the numbers. I'd be curious to find them. I tried briefly before my reply. My number one goal though is preservation of life, mine.

    As stated, there are many variables other than the few stated.

  9. #9
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    While I do think you would be justified in this, I don't think that it would really be worth risking your life. If there were a way to draw and still keep it hidden from view while the BG emptied the drawer and then see where it goes from there. However, unless you're in this situation, and staring down the barrel of a gun that will be used on you if the assailant so chooses, I don't think you could really answer how you'd react. Just my two cents, but I don't think I would be willing to draw down on the guy if I was alone and I thought that he would leave if I gave him the money.

  10. #10
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    When a gun is pointed at you with the jumpy finger of some crack-head on the trigger your life has already been placed at risk.

    Give up the money and hope for the best ? Probably a 95% chance he won't shoot you. What about the remaining 5% chance he will intentionally or accidentally pull the trigger ? Once you unlock that cash drawer - you are no longer of any useful value to the dirt-bag.

    Redirect the BG's attention by glancing in the direction of the entrance and ask the BG - "What do you plan to do about those Cops out there in the parking lot ?" ) When the BG looks away from you - grab his gun in a firm grip and redirect it away from you with one hand while you draw your gun and terminate the cockroach.

    Corporate number-crunchers would rather lose an occassional (and apparently expendable) employee, than risk a decline in sales volume that might result from the presence of a strategically placed armed guard.

  11. #11
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    You are the clerk at a gas station staring down the barrel of a Glock 17 with a man telling you to give him the money. Justified in self-defense right then is not on my mind as any action that I take outside of giving him the money will probably cause him to pull the trigger. Now Dirty Harry, Steven Segal or Chuck Norris may be able to pull a gun a shoot him before he pulls the trigger but I am not going to try that at that moment.

    If something happens that I feel that he is distracted enough to get my gun or baseball bat or whatever then I may go into self-defens mode and yes I would be justified to "blow him away". Once I give him the money and he turns to run out the door I no longer am justifeid if he doesn't stop or turn around as much as we want to say that he needs to be stopped before he does it again.

    The point is that according to the original post I really can't answer the poll other than if I were holding my gun in hand like at a duel then I would pull the trigger and be justified. Otherwise the scenario needs to be expanded.

    Edit to add: In SC if you are a customer standing behind the crackhead holding the gun then you are justified in taking him out. The Alter Ego principle allows you to place yourself in the position of the clerk and since the clerk can't get to his gun you can take his place and fire away.
    Last edited by PT111; 08-17-2010 at 11:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    What makes you think that giving him the money he won't just leave?

    Have you been in this situation? I've had close friends that have, complied and suspect left. Statistically speaking I don't know the numbers. I'd be curious to find them. I tried briefly before my reply. My number one goal though is preservation of life, mine.

    As stated, there are many variables other than the few stated.
    Point is that you're handing control over your life to the crook for the duration of the encounter. You can either be okay with that and hope for the best, or you can try to take control back.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cscitney87 View Post
    You are a clerk at a gas station. A man points a gun at you and demands all the cash out of the register. His exact words are, "Give me all the money!"
    You have the right to use deadly force--at any time, against a crime of violence felony being committed. Aggravated Assault is a crime of violence.

  14. #14
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    justified or not, i am going to shoot

  15. #15
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    Anyone who intentionally points a gun at you under hostile circumstances is committing assault with a deadly weapon. A person would be justified in responding with deadly force in self defense.

    The "hostile circumstance" simply means that the victim has no reason to believe that it's a joke or play acting or that the aggressor is an officer of the law.

    Which brings up a question particularly pertinent here in Las Vegas where I live. When might I be justified in shooting an officer of the law who is pointing a gun at me? I'm thinking of the recent Erik Scott killing here in Las Vegas. He was a totally innocent man in a situation where no crime had been committed who was suddenly faced with officers pointing their guns at him. Ordinarily we think that we can simply surrender to officers in that kind of situation. However that did not work out very well for Mr. Scott. As he was attempting to surrender, he was shot seven times and killed on the spot. Officers have this saying about wanting to be the one who gets to go home at the end of the day. Well, they need to understand that applies equally to all of us honest law abiding citizens. I literally cringe at the idea of shooting an officer and can't imagine what a world of hurt I'd be in if that ever happened. But the bottom line is I'd rather be in that world of hurt than be dead like Erik Scott. So the question is: Can I trust the officer not to pull the trigger? Recent events, including the Erik Scott case, here in Las Vegas leave that an open question.

  16. #16
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VegasGeorge View Post
    When might I be justified in shooting an officer of the law who is pointing a gun at me?
    I've wondered the same thing myself.

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