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Thread: Small victory in Saint Clair, MI regarding preemption

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Small victory in Saint Clair, MI regarding preemption

    While not specifically OC related, this effects all who purchase firearms. I have CPL, so I didn't know that St Clair had implemented a purchase permit fee in 2009. My wife went to the PD a couple weeks ago to get 2 purchase permits and was charged $10 per permit. I thought this didn't sound right and looked into it. I notified the city manager that the city could not charge a permit fee due to Michigan Act 319 of 1990:
    “A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.”
    Michigan used to allow cities to charge an optional $5 processing fee for obtaining a License to Purchase. However MCL 28.423 was repealed by PA 381 of 2000.
    The city manager checked with the city attorney who confirmed that I was correct. The $10 fee has been changed to a notary fee and it is now optional since you can notarize a document at ANY notary. My bank does it as a free service. I was told that a refund would be issued from the PD. It will be nice to get the $20 back.

    ... now i just have to get them to take down or modify the rules sign at the new skate park that says NO weapons are allowed.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 08-16-2010 at 01:51 PM. Reason: clarity
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Very Cool!

    Isn't it great when Local Units of Government work with us not against us?

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    sure is. wouldn't it be nice if royal oak was this easy? this didn't even have to be addressed to the city council, just the city manager and attorney.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    park sign

    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    While not specifically OC related, this effects all who purchase firearms. I have CPL, so I didn't know that St Clair had implemented a purchase permit fee in 2009. My wife went to the PD a couple weeks ago to get 2 purchase permits and was charged $10 per permit. I thought this didn't sound right and looked into it. I notified the city manager that the city could not charge a permit fee due to Michigan Act 319 of 1990:
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    Michigan used to allow cities to charge an optional $5 processing fee for obtaining a License to Purchase. However MCL 28.423 was repealed by PA 381 of 2000.
    The city manager checked with the city attorney who confirmed that I was correct. The $10 fee has been changed to a notary fee and it is now optional since you can notarize a document at ANY notary. My bank does it as a free service. I was told that a refund would be issued from the PD. It will be nice to get the $20 back.

    ... now i just have to get them to take down or modify the rules sign at the new skate park that says NO weapons are allowed.
    Send the city attorney a copy of michigan's preemption law.The NO FIREARMS sign is illegal and totally unenforceable.What is the name of the park.I'll contact them.

  5. #5
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Good to hear, but i thought I remember there being a max of 10 dollars clause somewhere....Michigander or Dr.Todd or one of the other brians posted it awhile back.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    here's exactly what the sign says

    sign at the skate park states:
    "This is an alcohol. weapon and drug free facility. Profanity, fighting, inappropriate noise levels, other acts of violence, destroying and defacing (graffiti) of public property and all other violations city ordinances for public park use are prohibited. Violators will be prosecuted."
    http://www.cityofstclair.com/skate%2...guidelines.htm
    so it's not exactly a "no firearms", but i contend that, obviously, "weapons" includes firearms. i did e-mail the city manager on it since there is no info on the city attorney. here's the response i got from the manager:
    "I have spoken to the City Attorney who advises that the use of the word ‘weapon’ in the Park Guidelines is acceptable. He has also indicated that state law supersedes any local regulation or guideline in this matter."

    in a previous email, the city manager did state that saint clair PD has been trained on firearms preemption and the legality of open carry. i've never had a problem or even been approached while OCing in saint clair.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 08-16-2010 at 02:33 PM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatboyCykes View Post
    Good to hear, but i thought I remember there being a max of 10 dollars clause somewhere....Michigander or Dr.Todd or one of the other brians posted it awhile back.
    the 10 dollar max applies to notary fees, however the PD cannot require you to get your permit notarized there. my wife just left the PD a few minutes ago with $20 in her hot little hands. she took a pic of the new sign and i'll post it later when i get home.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 08-16-2010 at 02:33 PM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Nice job Dan.

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    Nice follow through! I wonder if the city manager is pals with the city manager of Marysville.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    the 10 dollar max applies to notary fees, however the PD cannot require you to get your permit notarized there. my wife just left the PD a few minutes ago with $20 in her hot little hands. she took a pic of the new sign and i'll post it later when i get home.
    I stand corrected, thank you sir!

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i talked it over with my wife and we'll be donating the $20 to the hamaneggs defense fund
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    update to add promised picture


    sorry it took so long.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Nice job!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    It should be choose instead of "chose."

    Morons.

    These are the people we're trusting to handle our firearms records?

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 09-16-2010 at 03:02 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    point taken.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    bump for sterling heights
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    While not specifically OC related, this effects all who purchase firearms. I have CPL, so I didn't know that St Clair had implemented a purchase permit fee in 2009. My wife went to the PD a couple weeks ago to get 2 purchase permits and was charged $10 per permit. I thought this didn't sound right and looked into it. I notified the city manager that the city could not charge a permit fee due to Michigan Act 319 of 1990:
    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    Michigan used to allow cities to charge an optional $5 processing fee for obtaining a License to Purchase. However MCL 28.423 was repealed by PA 381 of 2000.
    The city manager checked with the city attorney who confirmed that I was correct. The $10 fee has been changed to a notary fee and it is now optional since you can notarize a document at ANY notary. My bank does it as a free service. I was told that a refund would be issued from the PD. It will be nice to get the $20 back.

    ... now i just have to get them to take down or modify the rules sign at the new skate park that says NO weapons are allowed.
    Are you talking about the Skate Park in Eastpointe? I have already been to 3 Council meetings, and they still refuse to change it.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Are you talking about the Skate Park in Eastpointe? I have already been to 3 Council meetings, and they still refuse to change it.
    no, st clair
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    It should be choose instead of "chose."

    Morons.

    These are the people we're trusting to handle our firearms records?

    Bronson
    i know what you mean here burton PD mis-spelled my name on a purchase permit while she had my licence

  20. #20
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    sure is. wouldn't it be nice if royal oak was this easy? this didn't even have to be addressed to the city council, just the city manager and attorney.
    Nope, The Royal Oak situation played out very well for us, personally I believe that our fight and win there has shown our determination for our cause. Also I believe it has greatly helped cities to look at the issue and just fold when we bring a Pre-emption issue before them. When they pushed so did we, with excellent results! Record numbers at AB&E despite the nay - sayers! No Royal Oak worked heavily in our favor!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHCGRPR45 View Post
    Nope, The Royal Oak situation played out very well for us, personally I believe that our fight and win there has shown our determination for our cause. Also I believe it has greatly helped cities to look at the issue and just fold when we bring a Pre-emption issue before them. When they pushed so did we, with excellent results! Record numbers at AB&E despite the nay - sayers! No Royal Oak worked heavily in our favor!
    I firmly believe that our efforts in Royal Oak about Arts, Beats, & Eats Firearm Carry Issue were directly rewarded with Michigan State Police Legal Update #86. We actually were very consistent in that we asked the City Commission to work with us, not against us. There were far more "arrows in the quiver" should have actually decided to "push back". I, for one, am glad it did not come to that.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    you guys are preaching to the necro-post choir... check the dates!
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  23. #23
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    you guys are preaching to the necro-post choir... check the dates!
    Its not a necro post if I am right....AND I am! So maybe this is a zombie thread!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

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