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Thread: Wenatchee - the next Spokane?

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Wenatchee - the next Spokane?

    This seems to be right up our alley...Wenatchee - Do we have a local member?

    From: http://www.mrsc.org/subjects/parks/parkrl.aspx


    http://www.eastmontparks.com/park-rules.shtml

    PARK RULES & REGULATIONS
    Governing Public Use of Parks Operated by:
    Eastmont Metropolitan Parks District

    Approved March 21, 2005

    These Rules and Regulations are intended to assure the public that Eastmont Metropolitan Parks District (hereinafter called Eastmont Parks), located in Douglas County, will operate and maintain recreation facilities in a clean, attractive and safe condition for the use and enjoyment of all park visitors and are open to all members of the public without discrimination.

    These rules and regulations shall apply to all parks owned, operated, and maintained by Eastmont Parks. These rules and regulations apply to Eastmont Community Park, Tedford Park, Kenroy Park, Pangborn/Herndon Memorial Park, the Aquatic Center and the Douglas County side of the Apple Capital Loop Trail.

    Additional recreational information is available at the Eastmont Parks and Recreation Department at 255 North Georgia, East Wenatchee, Washington, (509) 884-8015

    Section 9. Firearms and/or Weapons
    No person shall openly display a firearm or weapon in any park area, nor shall any person discharge or propel across, in, or into any park area, a firearm, bow and arrow, spear, spear gun, harpoon, sling shot, BB gun, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property. No firearms or weapons are allowed in a Park without the written permission of the Director.

    If not an event......Maybe a letter writing campaign to get the local law recinded? I'm happy to ask the question.

    http://www.eastmontparks.com/board.shtml
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member Lammo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    This seems to be right up our alley...Wenatchee - Do we have a local member?

    SNIP

    Section 9. Firearms and/or Weapons
    No person shall openly display a firearm or weapon in any park area, nor shall any person discharge or propel across, in, or into any park area, a firearm, bow and arrow, spear, spear gun, harpoon, sling shot, BB gun, air or gas weapon, or any device capable of injuring or killing any person or animal, or damaging or destroying any public or private property. No firearms or weapons are allowed in a Park without the written permission of the Director.

    SNIP

    http://www.eastmontparks.com/board.shtml
    Your bolded section isn't the real problem. That could be construed as an inartful repetition of RCW 9.41.270. To the extent that it might be construed to prohibit simple open carry in a park, which I'm sure is what they meant, it is pre-empted. The real problem comes with the last sentence of the section "No firearms or weapons are allowed in a Park without the written permission of the Director." No two ways about it, that section is void under RCW 9.41.290 and .300. Methinks it's time for a pic-a-nic.
    IAALBIAAFTDPASNIPHCBCALA
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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Yes, while the weathers still good!

    I agree with all you said....but one of the conclusions that I am coming to researching this, is that the list of cities, parks, counties etc out of compliance...is darn near endless!

    For me there seem to be two steps in the process of achieving the goal...action and accountability.

    A "demonstration" (pic-nic) that gets everyones attention is a good "action" event, but underpinning that is either a follow-up effort or a pre-emptive effort to get the local code/title/chapter actually changed once the issue is identified so we don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel.

    So far, with my efforts dogging, Pierce County, I have verbally been told 'no problemo",

    ...and then today (finally) got a call from the council members (assistant) that I contacted. She slightly admonished me for not pursuing this, from the Council member down (as in "you should have started with the Council member, that's how we do things around here)...but then it's been two weeks and I heard nothing from him (but that don't mean he ain't workin').

    She asked me "what did I want to do?" "Was I with some organization"?, "Was I inquireing if it was OK to carry a gun in the park?...... I said no, I want the council to revise the Title 14 Pierce County Code to come in line with the State RCW!...."oh," she said.

    Working from the other end, I learned a lot...That Parks made the recommendation July 25th, 2008, the code revisor submitted it, and the council sat on the parks recommendation and code revisors changes for two years (until we go away?)...

    Now, it will take 4-8 weeks of "process": legal review,publish annoucements in the paper, public comment....etc. (this for something that is known to be pre-empted)....

    It's a lot like trying to untie knots in a hair ball of fishing line....but you just keep at it one at a time.

    We do well when we make a statement, like the effort in Spokane, and just "being" out there but, I am not sure that we're being acknowledged or ignored....and then two weeks later, we're out of the local news cycle and some women that didn't get the memo, accosts someone OC"g and makes a big scene in public.

    When we make the political leadership (county, city, town or whatever), formalize the change by correcting their local code, then we hold them accountable in the public venue and......... with the stack of success can then press forward the next jursidiction that needs our desperate attention.

    Wenatchee, if we take it up, will be much the same I think......
    Last edited by jt59; 08-16-2010 at 05:04 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I sent this email to the first person on the list of board members on their website:

    Ms. Brawley,

    My comment is regarding rule #9 on this page on your website, http://www.eastmontparks.com/park-rules.shtml .

    Revised Code of Washington, 9.41.290 causes it to be illegal for a government agency in the State of Washington lower than the state legislature to regulate the carrying of firearms, either openly or concealed, except in very limited circumstances contained in RCW 9.41.300. Public parks is not one of the allowed circumstances in 9.41.300.

    Please comply with the state statute and remove the illegal and unenforceable language from parks rule number 9.

    Thank you,
    Very Respectfully,
    John H.......
    Good on U!

    Let us know if she responds by the end of the week...if not, we step up the contact with a direct call over there....
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    And there are 4 or 5 other board members too. I just didn't feel like emailing them all at once.
    There are....it would help to find out who, if any advocates are on the board via any local OC members in the Wenatchee area. Otherwise, we can also petition the council chair....but if there is no response in a reasonable amount of time, then we can pursue it further. It will just get a lot more traction if we have local support....next step is to get a commitment from one of them to get it up on the agenda.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    emailed Dan White, the Chairman, and I'll post any reply I receive.

  7. #7
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    E-mailed all the board members:

    Dear XXXXX,

    I am requesting that the board review rule #9 on this page on your website, http://www.eastmontparks.com/park-rules.shtml at its next scheduled board meeting.

    The Revised Code of Washington, 9.41.290 causes it to be illegal for Towns, Cities and Counties to regulate the carrying of firearms, either openly or concealed, except in very limited circumstances contained in RCW 9.41.300. The County Public parks are not one of the allowed circumstances that are described in 9.41.300.

    In addition, the rule requirement that say "No firearms or weapons are allowed in a Park without the written permission of the Director." are also overeaching to the state code.

    I am asking that the park board, correct this through a resolution or with the code revisor to comply with the state statute and remove the illegal and unenforceable language from parks rule number 9.

    Can you please advise when this will be addressed on the next upcoming agenda, so that I may attend?


    I'll also post any notifications that I recieve
    Last edited by jt59; 08-17-2010 at 05:55 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARADCOM View Post
    emailed Dan White, the Chairman, and I'll post any reply I receive.
    Thank you!
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Parks August Agenda/Minutes

    So, here is a link to the minutes of the meeting (yesterday)....no mention of LT's email request...

    http://www.eastmontparks.com/downloa...08-16-2010.pdf

    but........there appears to be a regularly scheduled "open mike" for public comments (number 9).

    The next several meetings are being held for public comments on budget for 2011, so we see if we can get this done via e-mail or not....

    Lammo's pic-nic may be in order!...plus by then, if we can get the cc's of Vancouver and Clark county minutes (maybe, some follow up from Pierce county), I'll forward that over to them for "background" research.

    Was anything from Spokane Parks ever formalized into recorded minutes of the meeting? We should probly consider a Thread to archive these as we get them...
    Last edited by jt59; 08-17-2010 at 06:06 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    WA OpenCarry forums seem to have a lot of local knowledge about how to get these illegal ordinances overturned. Is there somewhere where a recommended process is documented? Like: first talk to someone on the council. Next, if no response, try talking to the City Attorney. etc. It might be useful for the future or even for OC members in other states.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoomGoober View Post
    WA OpenCarry forums seem to have a lot of local knowledge about how to get these illegal ordinances overturned. Is there somewhere where a recommended process is documented? Like: first talk to someone on the council. Next, if no response, try talking to the City Attorney. etc. It might be useful for the future or even for OC members in other states.
    I would say it may be possible, but it'd have to be a pretty general or generic approach. Because there are so many local political infrastructures and committee's to sort through to see who's actually in charge...I would say each effort has a unique strategy....depending on what authority you were talking to and what the end result desired was....Revision of a local ordinance to be compliant to a state law or actually, creating a local ordinance to be pro- if that is where the (authority to change) control point is.

    Say you had a Council that was 70-30 D's or R's with a history of gun control advocacy and ordinance implementation at the local level, and with the WA state pre-emption, your just looking to get them to remove a "gun" ban in a park....I'd be going to the legal side of the building for an interpretation...and with info in hand, start working the council after I did a little background research on who they are....

    Another approach is to simply "bump" your way through the process..."let's have an OC pic-nic" and call the media to show, and then work the political side of the change from a "bully pulpit" kind of an approach....it's ok, and give one a lot of hard earned experience, but tends to be much more confrontational.

    Both work, although I think one approach ends up with more bruises (and lables) than the other to get to the same place....but they are both just "method tools" to an end goal...sometimes it's a doggie treat, sometimes a shock collar.

    I'm finding that often the laws were put in place so many years ago, no body can remember when it was done, and until someone simply brings it to their attention to review, they are happy to fix it.

    Sometimes the laws are put in place in spite of it (Seattle, Chicago, DC) and someone has to push back...sometimes it can happen with a grass roots effort, other times it needs legal support...

    But in both cases, whoever is the Standard Bearer for the local issue that they want to push, you have to be willing/able to be tenacious enough to follow up on it to the end....(Spokane Parks, Vancouver Parks, Snohomish Courts).

    Pierce County Gun Ban in Parks thread is as good as any as an example or this one.

    In 2008, the issue was raised, PC Parks put through a revision request, the code reviewer wrote it, it got the legal green light and then somehow slipped through the cracks on a vote from the council for two years until we raised the issue again.....and now we're starting, basically all over....it will go through but it will take several months to accomplish.

    So, I don't know if this helps or not, but I'd be happy to help craft something....

    Once you get past (and have determined) the legal rightousness of whatever the non-compliance is, it's nearly a pure political play in my view.....
    Last edited by jt59; 08-18-2010 at 02:43 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Council Revisions to Parks Code are in place

    Much to do...about nothing?

    I don't know, but it's fixed now....my last response from these folks, clears it up.

    "John,

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention and I think we have figured out what the issue is. It looks like you went to the site map and clicked on park rules and for some reason it is bringing up our old rules. (Oh, my)

    However, from our home page, if you click on “Administration” and then click on “Park & Trail Rules and Regulations” and then click on “Park Rules”, it will bring up our current rules. (Not where someone would actually look)...Our webmaster has been notified and is correcting this error.

    Here is the correct link for our Park Rules: http://www.eastmontparks.com/downloa...park-rules.pdf

    We really do appreciate that you pointed out this error!"

    Thank you,
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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