Toys R Us - NO FIREARMS

Well for heaven's sake I hope that when John and Mike decide to make their next press release they don't dare include any reference to this site. God forbid someone with a dissenting opinion sees what goes on here. Perhaps they can leave the references only to OCDO, to leave people guessing as to what group they represent. Supporters of OCDO-mom? Perhaps. OCDO-pus? Yup that's probably it. Just like the answer of how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know what OCDO really is.

jmelvin said:

Well for heaven's sake I hope that when John and Mike decide to make their next press release they don't dare include any reference to this site. God forbid someone with a dissenting opinion sees what goes on here. Perhaps they can leave the references only to OCDO, to leave people guessing as to what group they represent. Supporters of OCDO-mom? Perhaps. OCDO-pus? Yup that's probably it. Just like the answer of how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know what OCDO really is.

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You're really stretching this quite out of context. A press release is a piece of information that interested parties generally have to look for. When you send a direct link to someone who has shown and implemented anti-gun policies, that is quite another matter. You know Ed is right, it's a no-brainer.

TFred

jmelvin said:

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now we agree.

I declare then that peter nap is right. We shall agree to disagree then, unless y'all disagree on this point as well.

Different tactics and different preferences. Our opposers know we're here. Those companies with something to lose and know they have a reputation to protect know we're here and exactly where their companies are being discussed. I keep hearing that somehow we're doing the work of the anti's for them. Really? How? We're going out talking about how normal people carrying guns are bad? We're behaving poorly when we go out while OCing? We're sending thank you letters to CEOs and customer representatives for putting up "No Guns" signs?

Let me say thank you to Mr. Paramedic for taking the time and energy to write about your concern. Your tactics may not be my tactics, but you were cordial and non-confrontational. Thank you for your efforts!

jmelvin said:

I declare then that peter nap is right. We shall agree to disagree then, unless y'all disagree on this point as well.

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agreed.

Also.. when I got not answer from the store, I sent the second postcard to the CEO.. i would expect that one to get a written response. Even when it is in the negative at least "most" of corp. America still sends a professional "no".

Ed

I'll take the long way home tonight and stop by this store to see if it is still posted. I'm hoping it is not.

jmelvin said:

I declare then that peter nap is right. We shall agree to disagree then, unless y'all disagree on this point as well.

Different tactics and different preferences. Our opposers know we're here. Those companies with something to lose and know they have a reputation to protect know we're here and exactly where their companies are being discussed. I keep hearing that somehow we're doing the work of the anti's for them. Really? How? We're going out talking about how normal people carrying guns are bad? We're behaving poorly when we go out while OCing? We're sending thank you letters to CEOs and customer representatives for putting up "No Guns" signs?

Let me say thank you to Mr. Paramedic for taking the time and energy to write about your concern. Your tactics may not be my tactics, but you were cordial and non-confrontational. Thank you for your efforts!

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I really don't want to make this more than it is, but you are simply not correct in many of these assumptions. Many of "our opposers" have no idea who we are, or that we are here. They simply follow the lead of what sounds like should be right. We've seen this behavior over and over again. The assumption that you make (incorrectly) is that everyone who takes a side on this issue is as passionate about it as we are. That is simply not the case. (Remember Starbucks, they said leave us alone, we just want to sell coffee!) Most people don't care. They think "yeah, I don't want anyone to bring a gun in here" and without thinking it through, they do what the non-thinking people do and slap up a sign.

Quite simply, it does not help us to win these kinds of people over if they come here and see us engaged in various sorts of debate on how to best respond to them. We have the high ground. Our way of thinking is correct in the long term. But sometimes we get angry and throw around words like "boycott", and "tell thousands of people", etc. These are the internal debates that are best not seen by the majority of folks who engage in anti-gun activity, they're the classic sheeple, who, with appropriate guidance and friendly conversation, often do come around.

You are right about one thing, the most ardent anti-gun folks do know we're here. They are lost. There is no hope for them. The battle does not lie with them, but for the minds and reason of the middle folks who are deceived by the corrupt media and hardcore anti-gun liars. They already know what we think and how we respond, but there is no consequence there. That is not the case for most encounters we are likely to have as everyday people.

They really don't care. They just want to live their lives. What they see here can push them away, because they haven't lived and breathed this issue like most of us here have for years.

I think that's as clear as I can make it.

TFred

TFred said:

I really don't want to make this more than it is, but you are simply not correct in many of these assumptions. Many of "our opposers" have no idea who we are, or that we are here. They simply follow the lead of what sounds like should be right. We've seen this behavior over and over again. The assumption that you make (incorrectly) is that everyone who takes a side on this issue is as passionate about it as we are. That is simply not the case. (Remember Starbucks, they said leave us alone, we just want to sell coffee!) Most people don't care. They think "yeah, I don't want anyone to bring a gun in here" and without thinking it through, they do what the non-thinking people do and slap up a sign.

Quite simply, it does not help us to win these kinds of people over if they come here and see us engaged in various sorts of debate on how to best respond to them. We have the high ground. Our way of thinking is correct in the long term. But sometimes we get angry and throw around words like "boycott", and "tell thousands of people", etc. These are the internal debates that are best not seen by the majority of folks who engage in anti-gun activity, they're the classic sheeple, who, with appropriate guidance and friendly conversation, often do come around.

You are right about one thing, the most ardent anti-gun folks do know we're here. They are lost. There is no hope for them. The battle does not lie with them, but for the minds and reason of the middle folks who are deceived by the corrupt media and hardcore anti-gun liars. They already know what we think and how we respond, but there is no consequence there. That is not the case for most encounters we are likely to have as everyday people.

They really don't care. They just want to live their lives. What they see here can push them away, because they haven't lived and breathed this issue like most of us here have for years.

I think that's as clear as I can make it.

TFred

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and all that is what I meant.. you just said it a hundred times better.

Thank you for your explanation TFred. You make assumptions of my view that are not correct. While only some are ardent opposers of people's right to self defense, I do not consider this to be the case for many people. There are many here who can testify to having their mind change, whether it be by having been robbed, having a friend reason soundly with them on the importance of protecting one's self or merely by coming to the conclusion from reading an article or forum they may have come across. While this person's current conclusion is that of wincing away from regular folk's carrying firearms for self protection, these people often love life and are able to be reached by realizing that their life is of value and is thus worthy of protection. I recognize that these folks generally do not know we are here, so you have not revealed anything that is news to me. It is our ardent opposers who know we are here, know our logic, know our arguments and know our plans. Personally I think helping people think through the logic that their lives inherently have value and are worth protecting is a message that tends to help people understand the importance of having tools of defense commonly available.

This disagreement on letting business folks know where we get our information on their businesses is a bit curious to me. You and ed take serious issue with one of our supporters informing what may be a small handful of folks in a business about our existence and beliefs; however Ed hocks "Guns Saves Lives" magnets to anyone who hands him the money for them without knowing how they'll be used or upon whose bumper they'll show up. These magnets not only point to us here at OCDO, but to VCDL as well and stand as a representative to potentially millions of people unfamiliar with our little world across the Commonwealth and other states every day! Is it not just a little bit disingenuous that you two take exception to someone writing a cordial letter to address a serious problem and pointing to OCDO as a source of info, when you likely have stickers of your own pointing here and due to Ed's sale of these magnets may have hundreds or thousands of these little pointers to this site on the back sides of cars and trucks, with drivers behaving in who knows what manner? I don't see how one can honestly take offense to a simple pointer in a cordial, cogent e-mail about a serious issue (preventing one from carrying defensive tools while shopping) when one sells pointers to this site willy-nilly to anyone who'll buy them and slap them up for the world to see.

If you two are done pestering other people who have taken the time to address this issue, I'd appreciate it if you could leave the thread alone.

jmelvin said:

This disagreement on letting business folks know where we get our information on their businesses is a bit curious to me. You and ed take serious issue with one of our supporters informing what may be a small handful of folks in a business about our existence and beliefs; however Ed hocks "Guns Saves Lives" magnets to anyone who hands him the money for them without knowing how they'll be used or upon whose bumper they'll show up. These magnets not only point to us here at OCDO, but to VCDL as well and stand as a representative to potentially millions of people unfamiliar with our little world across the Commonwealth and other states every day! Is it not just a little bit disingenuous that you two take exception to someone writing a cordial letter to address a serious problem and pointing to OCDO as a source of info, when you likely have stickers of your own pointing here and due to Ed's sale of these magnets may have hundreds or thousands of these little pointers to this site on the back sides of cars and trucks, with drivers behaving in who knows what manner? I don't see how one can honestly take offense to a simple pointer in a cordial, cogent e-mail about a serious issue (preventing one from carrying defensive tools while shopping) when one sells pointers to this site willy-nilly to anyone who'll buy them and slap them up for the world to see.

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I thought you "got it" you still don't. The advertising of OCDO and VCDL to the masses is one thing that both OCDO and VCDL approve of. You are right.. the site is public and can be googled and sought out, etc. It a totally different scenario when you write to an anti about their signs, etc and then point them BACK to the website for confirmation of what you just told them. Again, it is like showing your hand in a poker game.

This situation is similar to the VCDL policy that we don't tell people to post. Sure they can and sure they can't if it is private property.. they have the choice.. but an OC'er that goes out of his way telling a place they should post a NO GUNS SIGN will probably end up getting his way and ruin it for CC'ers as well.

Finally.. you seem like a "must have the last word" kinda guy. I too think this thread should go back to talking about firearms at (or not at Toys R US) instead of how we all feel about how the site should be mentioned or not. You will do as you please (and have done) and I will do the same and we will both think we are right. It won't be the first time that a pair of gun owners have disagreed on here. I think we both still agree on gun rights and I don't think we will have a shootout since we disagreed either.

Ed

Went by this evening and the Lynchburg Toys R Us is still posted and getting none of my business and all of my encouragement to my friends to shop elsewhere for their kids.

jmelvin said:

I just find it a bit silly to act like this is some secret spot that all of the world can't already see or isn't already familiar with, especially for large corporations. Anyone, anytime, anyday can see this board on purpose by seeking it out or easily coming across it in a random Google, Bing, Yahoo or whatever search. What good is this board as a means of getting news about OC out to the world if people can't find the place or search it out.

This is a public forum. If I didn't think people would see my postings warning of places that restrict people's ability to carry a firearm for personal defense I wouldn't bother to post as the board would be completely ineffective. Part of having an open board for the world to learn from means that our opposition will see our thoughts too as will those who have put up these silly signs and they can read the arguments for themselves and see where there customers are going and why.

If we're going to maintain that this is some secret squirrel forum not to be read by anyone other than those of us who are already here, then this place is a waste of my time.

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It's because most people receiving these sorts of mailsing are NOT going to be bothered to do the research themselves. We see this all the time on the forums by people asking questions that if they had done the slightest bit of research would have found themselves.

But... if we give the mailing recipients the directions on where to find it, they are far more likely to go there & read. Sometimes it is to our benefit to direct them so and other times, it's not.

TFred said:

I agree with Ed. It's not that we're hiding, it's that we're not doing the work of the antis for them!

Look at how much trouble even our own members have trying to find stuff from time to time. In this battle of ideology, information is ammunition. The more you give away, the more they have to work with.

We have internal debates and discussions here that, taken out of context, could be used to hurt our efforts. There is simply no good reason to go out of our way to put this sort of information in the laps of those who hate what we want and would do anything to stop our efforts.

Again, we aren't hiding, there is just no sense in helping the other side either.

TFred

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Personally I think they need all the help they can get. If it calls for hand-holding then so be it. Let me put in the paraphrased words of a people person, people don't remember what you say, what you write or what you do but they do and will remember how you make them feel. So if by helping them I give them a warm fuzzy feeling, well, maybe it isn't so bad.

Well it turns out that email address for the CEO was no good, I am using the Contact Us form at the main web site:

http://www.toysrus.com/helpdesk/index.jsp?display=store&subdisplay=contact&stillHaveQuestion=yes

I guess this is why I found a Yukon Cornelius there last December with no gun...

The wife and I were up in Charlottesville this afternoon and saw a Toys R Us nearby and drove by to see if it had the No Guns signage too. Sure enough the store had it as bold as daylight, but the Babies R Us just next door had no such signage. What a disappointment to see more of these signs!

Signs Posted At Babies "R" Us in Flint

They have signs posted at Babies "R" Us in Flint (first noticed July 2010). Have yet to check Toys "R" Us.

It's a shame, because we are having a baby in March and are looking for a place to register. I say this to exemplify what they are missing rather than to brag (please accept it as that): Our family and friends are VERY generous with us, and it is likely that Babies "R" Us will miss out on at least several thousand dollars in revenue from our family and friends between now and the February baby shower.

We are going to have to find other places to purchase the many items we will need for our first child, unless they revisit this practice soon. And although it is a lesser charge of Trespassing (in Michigan) if carrying in a place that has been posted, I would still never disrespect the important right to private property - even if I disagree completely with their choices. Besides, the most important leverage I have is avoiding giving them my money until I am welcomed.

SIDE NOTE: On the debate over whether to share the forum address: when a topical discussion like this emerges, it might be best to take other debates that develop to another thread. This will avoid us diluting the important issue at hand, especially if someone (from a company like Toys "R" Us) comes to see what is being said. If we keep it professional instead of infighting, we will have a far greater impact.

I think folks who prohibit customers from preparing to exercise their right to defend themselves and their families should be told that they are thereby assuming an absolute duty to protect shoppers from the violent acts of third parties. No cases on point as yet, but that's my opinion, particularly as it applies to the duty a retailer owes to "business invitees". Ordinarily, they owe a very high duty of care, but are not "guarantors" of the shoppers' safety, particularly with respect to the acts of third parties. Generally, that's considered an "intervening cause" which cuts off the duty owed. My theory is that, while that would be true as a matter of general law, the fact that the retailer has actively interfered in the relationship between the shopper and the violent third party (since ordinarily the shopper has a duty to defend himself and his family), and the retailer has thereby assumed an absolute duty to keep the shopper safe from the violent third party.

Y'all can quote me, if you like, tell the stores you got an attorney's opinion on the matter. They can have their attorneys call and talk to me about it if they like.

Colonial Heights

Store in Colonial Heights has a sign posted as well.

Toy Guns

simmonsjoe said:

I'm gonna give them props on that one issue. Realistic toy guns = REALLY BAD BAD BAD IDEA. On many many many levels.

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I agree, and for me this includes the new "colored" handguns being offered by some companies as well. Anything that makes a firearm look like a toy is imho a poor idea.

Average Dad said:

I agree, and for me this includes the new "colored" handguns being offered by some companies as well. Anything that makes a firearm look like a toy is imho a poor idea.

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Then I am glad it's not UP to you.