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"Can" versus "Should"--from mosques to OC

Eeyore

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
551
Location
the meanest city in the stupidest state
All the discussion in the national media about the alleged mosque planned for the area near Ground Zero has gotten me thinking. (Anyone who’s ever read one of my posts knows this is dangerous.) Let me begin by saying this isn’t meant as an attack on anyone or any position, though some will probably perceive it as such. I just enjoy a good debate and think self-examination is a healthy thing from time to time.

Most of the mosque-at-Ground-Zero debate seems to center on the premise that “just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.” Maybe there’s no legal way to bar building a mosque in NYC, but is it a good idea? Might doing this be counter-productive to the stated goals of the builder? If so, that raises suspicion. Are their stated goals their true goals? Is there some ulterior motive? Might there be side-effects, and are they intended or unintended? This is the crux of the debate.

We have an identical debate within the OC community: witness the various threads where people urge others to dress conservatively so as not to harm public impressions of the movement. Others angrily reply that they’ll dress as they damn well please. So it’s a variation on the theme. Sure, you can dress however you want while OCing (tacticool, with a bucket over your head, as Batman, or someone from www.peopleofwalmart.com, whatever). But should you? Maybe you don’t care what people think, but will your choice have an impact on public opinion of OCers and OCing? (Not should it, but will it.) What is your true goal, and does your choice of dress advance that goal? Comparing the way you want people to react to the way you reasonably expect them to react will help answer these questions.

The same goes for behavior: you can make sure everyone knows you’re carrying, loudly proclaim your rights, be confrontational with anti’s and LEOs, and hope to get rich in a lawsuit. But should you? Such behavior may make one feel righteous, but is that the best way to normalize OC? If not, then why do it? Could a self-image of crusader/martyr be more important to you than producing positive results?

Unfortunately, this argument can be (and has been) used against OC in general. “OK, so it’s legal to open carry. But should you, really?” Stated another way, “Why are you bucking public convention?” I think everyone needs to have a good, rational answer to this question. “Because I can” is the rhetorical equivalent of “In your face!”--it probably won’t advance OC in any meaningful way. Everyone's reasons for OCing will be slightly different, but examining our behavior will show whether the reasons we profess are the real reasons we OC. We need to judge our reasons accurately, because you can be sure others are judging us on our actions.

I'd better stop...I think I've used up my quota of italics for the month :)
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
All the discussion in the national media about the alleged mosque planned for the area near Ground Zero has gotten me thinking. (Anyone who’s ever read one of my posts knows this is dangerous.) Let me begin by saying this isn’t meant as an attack on anyone or any position, though some will probably perceive it as such. I just enjoy a good debate and think self-examination is a healthy thing from time to time.

Most of the mosque-at-Ground-Zero debate seems to center on the premise that “just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.” Maybe there’s no legal way to bar building a mosque in NYC, but is it a good idea? Might doing this be counter-productive to the stated goals of the builder? If so, that raises suspicion. Are their stated goals their true goals? Is there some ulterior motive? Might there be side-effects, and are they intended or unintended? This is the crux of the debate.

We have an identical debate within the OC community: witness the various threads where people urge others to dress conservatively so as not to harm public impressions of the movement. Others angrily reply that they’ll dress as they damn well please. So it’s a variation on the theme. Sure, you can dress however you want while OCing (tacticool, with a bucket over your head, as Batman, or someone from www.peopleofwalmart.com, whatever). But should you? Maybe you don’t care what people think, but will your choice have an impact on public opinion of OCers and OCing? (Not should it, but will it.) What is your true goal, and does your choice of dress advance that goal? Comparing the way you want people to react to the way you reasonably expect them to react will help answer these questions.

The same goes for behavior: you can make sure everyone knows you’re carrying, loudly proclaim your rights, be confrontational with anti’s and LEOs, and hope to get rich in a lawsuit. But should you? Such behavior may make one feel righteous, but is that the best way to normalize OC? If not, then why do it? Could a self-image of crusader/martyr be more important to you than producing positive results?

Unfortunately, this argument can be (and has been) used against OC in general. “OK, so it’s legal to open carry. But should you, really?” Stated another way, “Why are you bucking public convention?” I think everyone needs to have a good, rational answer to this question. “Because I can” is the rhetorical equivalent of “In your face!”--it probably won’t advance OC in any meaningful way. Everyone's reasons for OCing will be slightly different, but examining our behavior will show whether the reasons we profess are the real reasons we OC. We need to judge our reasons accurately, because you can be sure others are judging us on our actions.

I'd better stop...I think I've used up my quota of italics for the month :)

Can't say I relish the thought of gansta thug wannabe's OC'ing gold plated .50 desert Eagles, but if it's their right I don't have anything to say about it. It's a shame to see how Americans who once took pride in their appearance devolve into "peopleofwalmart". I liked it when gangsters wore a suit and a tie.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
I feel that ANY religious organization should be able to build ANY sort of "house ow worship" anywhere it can afford, as long as they stay within local building code ordinances, and as long as they are NOT exempted from income, business, and property taxes...

Someone wants to build a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor? If they can afford the real estate, have at it.

Put up a Pagan Temple to Aphrodite (with all it's traditional celebrations) across the street from Gloria Steinem's house? Knock yourself out.

Does the Bush family want to build a Temple to Moloch across from the Holocaust Memorial, to commemorate their family's financial contribution to WWII? Build away...

Just don't give ANY of them tax-free status, because THAT is unconstitutional.

The 1A uses the same language as the 2A--SHALL NOT--with regards to infringement. I find it perplexing how some of the people who are most adamant about the absolute universality of the 2A tend to "play favorites" with the 1A. They never say "which" God in the Constitution. For all we know (and we know a LOT about some of the weirder beliefs of the Founding Fathers like Franklin) the "God" they were referring to could be Lucifer, or Baphomet, (many FFs were high-level Masons...) or Aqua Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all we know...


As for gang-bangers OCing--sure, if they can legally possess a firearm, they have the same rights as everyone else. Not allowing someone to practice their Constitutional rights because you don;t like their clothes, or their associations, or their beliefs is, on it's face, un-Constitutional.

But when they break the law using their gun--then let the hammer of justice be swift and sure...
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
I feel that ANY religious organization should be able to build ANY sort of "house ow worship" anywhere it can afford, as long as they stay within local building code ordinances, and as long as they are NOT exempted from income, business, and property taxes...

Someone wants to build a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbor? If they can afford the real estate, have at it.

Put up a Pagan Temple to Aphrodite (with all it's traditional celebrations) across the street from Gloria Steinem's house? Knock yourself out.

Does the Bush family want to build a Temple to Moloch across from the Holocaust Memorial, to commemorate their family's financial contribution to WWII? Build away...

Just don't give ANY of them tax-free status, because THAT is unconstitutional.

The 1A uses the same language as the 2A--SHALL NOT--with regards to infringement. I find it perplexing how some of the people who are most adamant about the absolute universality of the 2A tend to "play favorites" with the 1A. They never say "which" God in the Constitution. For all we know (and we know a LOT about some of the weirder beliefs of the Founding Fathers like Franklin) the "God" they were referring to could be Lucifer, or Baphomet, (many FFs were high-level Masons...) or Aqua Buddha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all we know...


As for gang-bangers OCing--sure, if they can legally possess a firearm, they have the same rights as everyone else. Not allowing someone to practice their Constitutional rights because you don;t like their clothes, or their associations, or their beliefs is, on it's face, un-Constitutional.

But when they break the law using their gun--then let the hammer of justice be swift and sure...


WTF???

Friday the 13th was days ago...

I find myself agreeing with Dreamer?

Actually, I usually do on premise. It's the conspiricy stuff that I find inane.

Molloch...:D
 

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
OCing while wearing "gangsta" clothes isn't going to make you any louder or more confrontational than OCing in a state like Commifornia, yet most, if not all the posters here encourage the Californians to OC where possible.
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
All the discussion in the national media about the alleged mosque planned for the area near Ground Zero has gotten me thinking. (Anyone who’s ever read one of my posts knows this is dangerous.) Let me begin by saying this isn’t meant as an attack on anyone or any position, though some will probably perceive it as such. I just enjoy a good debate and think self-examination is a healthy thing from time to time.

Most of the mosque-at-Ground-Zero debate seems to center on the premise that “just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should.” Maybe there’s no legal way to bar building a mosque in NYC, but is it a good idea? Might doing this be counter-productive to the stated goals of the builder? If so, that raises suspicion. Are their stated goals their true goals? Is there some ulterior motive? Might there be side-effects, and are they intended or unintended? This is the crux of the debate.

We have an identical debate within the OC community: witness the various threads where people urge others to dress conservatively so as not to harm public impressions of the movement. Others angrily reply that they’ll dress as they damn well please. So it’s a variation on the theme. Sure, you can dress however you want while OCing (tacticool, with a bucket over your head, as Batman, or someone from www.peopleofwalmart.com, whatever). But should you? Maybe you don’t care what people think, but will your choice have an impact on public opinion of OCers and OCing? (Not should it, but will it.) What is your true goal, and does your choice of dress advance that goal? Comparing the way you want people to react to the way you reasonably expect them to react will help answer these questions.

The same goes for behavior: you can make sure everyone knows you’re carrying, loudly proclaim your rights, be confrontational with anti’s and LEOs, and hope to get rich in a lawsuit. But should you? Such behavior may make one feel righteous, but is that the best way to normalize OC? If not, then why do it? Could a self-image of crusader/martyr be more important to you than producing positive results?

Unfortunately, this argument can be (and has been) used against OC in general. “OK, so it’s legal to open carry. But should you, really?” Stated another way, “Why are you bucking public convention?” I think everyone needs to have a good, rational answer to this question. “Because I can” is the rhetorical equivalent of “In your face!”--it probably won’t advance OC in any meaningful way. Everyone's reasons for OCing will be slightly different, but examining our behavior will show whether the reasons we profess are the real reasons we OC. We need to judge our reasons accurately, because you can be sure others are judging us on our actions.

I'd better stop...I think I've used up my quota of italics for the month :)

The short answer: I carry a weapon for self defense reasons. I carry a gun because it is compact, lightweight, and effective. I carry openly because it is easier, more comforatable, and easier to access. Sometimes I conceal carry depending on the weather and where I'm going.

As far as the mosque, this is the US of A. It's private property, they own it, they can build a mosque if they want. Just because it offends people doesn't make it illegal. In fact, I'd fully support any wise guy who waits until the mosque opens, then purchases the property next door and opens a strip club...called "Shieks", that serves nothing but pork products and beer on the menu. Turnabout is fair play.
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
As far as the mosque, this is the US of A. It's private property, they own it, they can build a mosque if they want. Just because it offends people doesn't make it illegal. In fact, I'd fully support any wise guy who waits until the mosque opens, then purchases the property next door and opens a strip club...called "Shieks", that serves nothing but pork products and beer on the menu. Turnabout is fair play.

Now that would be a just development, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone willing to bet against the titty bar getting firebombed first.
 

Las Vegan

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
145
Location
Las Vegas
In fact, I'd fully support any wise guy who waits until the mosque opens, then purchases the property next door and opens a strip club...called "Shieks", that serves nothing but pork products and beer on the menu.

I agree with you, but they should call it "Sheik Your Booty."
 

Eeyore

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
551
Location
the meanest city in the stupidest state
VAopencarry posted: What's your point?

My point is that when one lives in a civil society, there will always be conflict between what we can do and what we should do in many areas of our lives. We should be honest with ourselves about whether we're doing something just because we can, or because we should.

"Without a purpose, nothing should be done." --Marcus Aurelius

OP is re-trolling a locked thread, the the responses your reading are out of context, if you didn't see the original thread.

News to me. Can you back up your accusation? Didn't think so.
 
Last edited:

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
The line of deference as to what is appropriate and what is not, is so extended in proportions, that it is impossible to come to any centralized conclusion about what "should" or "Should not" be done.

The true exercising of liberty would not include such wantonly imposed limitations.

Do you believe that you have the right to espouse what I should do?
Do you believe that all people think the same?
Do you truly believe your "rationality" is superior to that of others?

Be careful what you place faith in. :)
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
As mentioned, this isn't a question of what 'we' "should" do. That is irrelevant. The "should not" do is possibly relevant.

What we "should" do is carry for our personal protection as we well. What we "should not" do is make it a "don't scare others by our manner of dress" discussion. As for the mosque? Irrelevant.

VAopencarry posted: What's your point?

My point is that when one lives in a civil society, there will always be conflict between what we can do and what we should do in many areas of our lives. We should be honest with ourselves about whether we're doing something just because we can, or because we should.

"Without a purpose, nothing should be done." --Marcus Aurelius



News to me. Can you back up your accusation? Didn't think so.
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
VAopencarry posted: What's your point?

My point is that when one lives in a civil society, there will always be conflict between what we can do and what we should do in many areas of our lives. We should be honest with ourselves about whether we're doing something just because we can, or because we should.

"Without a purpose, nothing should be done." --Marcus Aurelius



News to me. Can you back up your accusation? Didn't think so.
The entire thread was deleted, but you knew that.
 
Last edited:

khicks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
148
Location
inkster, Michigan, USA
some how i think this moqse is a con job, i think it is a play being done on us. soon there will be an anouncement that the group will move the mouqse to another local inoder to show that there the better person here. they bought the building for $4 mill will sellit to the city for 15 mill and the cittyn will give them a 20 mill building
 

thx997303

Regular Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
2,712
Location
Lehi, Utah, USA
I like desert eagles too.

Good lord kwik, you've become nothing but a post whore lately.

What happened to you (arguably) contributing something?

To the OP, we have a constitutional right and an obligation to provide protection for ourselves and our families.

I will be my normal kind self while OCing, but I will not discontinue the practice because my clothes are a little dirty that day.

A kind and polite person in a suit is no different than the same person in a t-shirt and jeans with tattoos. (I have one and will display it while OCing on occasion. I don't notice any different reactions.)

The initial reaction may be somewhat different but the impression left is usually the same. That guy didn't do anything wrong and was very polite.

This is the way I see it anyway.
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
The only con-job here...

some how i think this moqse is a con job, i think it is a play being done on us. soon there will be an anouncement that the group will move the mouqse to another local inoder to show that there the better person here. they bought the building for $4 mill will sellit to the city for 15 mill and the cittyn will give them a 20 mill building
...Is your high school diploma.
 

kwikrnu

Banned
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,956
Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
I think the mosque can and should be built. Religious persecution is nothing new. In my City of Brentwood Tennessee I remember in about 1995 when the Mormons wanted to build a temple near four other churches. They were denied. The excuses were many, but the real reason is that the jews and christian groups didn't want them there.
 
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