Idea on educating the community...

Cshoff...

cshoff said:

What it amounts to, IMHO, is not putting the horse before the cart. If you are representing a certain organization, you will have something to promote, and you can put it in writing or in official statements you might make to any media types that happen to be around. For example:

"We are here to promote the mission of XYZ organization. Our goals are to promote safe and responsible firearms ownership and use through education, to help recruit youth's and new shooters into the fun and safe sport of recreational shooting, and to organize and educate citizens of this state so that they are better prepared to communicate with their legislators about laws and regulations that affect their 2nd Amendment rights. More information can be found in the free and informative booklets we've been handing out all day, or by visiting our website at www.XYZorganization.org."

Alternatively, without having some organizational backing, it's really no more than a group of guys going over talking points. While your points may be valid and reasonable, they will never be viewed with an equal amount of credibility that the points of a bonafide, organized and official group would receive (such is life, and nobody said it was fair). ,

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I can agree with this 1k% As always I appreciate your thoughts on things. Keep em coming!

cshoff said:

Ask yourself this; who is going to be more effective at getting out their message and make a more resistant target to half-truths and distortions? A group of guys in a booth that represent the NRA, or a group of guys in a booth that have no affiliation, but advocate the same basic ideals as the NRA?

Like it or not, organized and official groups generally add legitimacy to ideals and platforms. They say to people, "hey, there are many of us who feel this way, and we have an entire network that can and will vouch for the validity of our goals and mission, as well as a strong support system that will stand up to any scrutiny".

Yep, every organization must start somewhere. And the people starting the organization must decide if it's more beneficial to have that network and support system at least partially in place before taking their message "to the street", or if taking the message "to the street" is the way to try to build that network and support system. The first can be done with little or no risk, while the second could be subject to it's share of pitfalls.

I'm not knocking Randy's idea at all. To the contrary; if you want to bring people into your movement, you'll have to get your message out there. But at this point, what is your message and where is your movement? If you can't define either, how do you plan on bringing people into it?

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i agree that having organized backing would be very beneficial to the success of such an adventure. so why aren't we organized? so why don't we as Missouri OC'ers have a website? websites are cheap, if not free. hell, i have a simple little free website thru my ISP with photo media hosted elsewhere and it takes up very little of the space/size allotted by my ISP.

how did the NRA get started? or the GOA? or the 2nd Amendment Foundation? someone had to take the first step. i would imagine that they got like minded individuals to commit to support of the cause. handbills were drawn up along with flyers and such. then they began to get the message out. sure, i bet it was difficult at first but they were determined to stick with it and soon they gained respect. and maybe some folks had run in's with LEO's. did that stop them? maybe some caved under that pressure but others did not. i know this is a stretch but did civil rights activists cave? no, they stayed the course.

i know that this isn't a nationwide civil rights issue but it is still about rights here in our great state. and respect. sure others will do their best to strike such an effort down. caving in only makes them stronger and us weaker. do MO OC'ers want to be considered as weak? should the anti's get their way or should we stand up for ourselves and our rights?

so again i ask, why aren't MO OC'ers organized? we've seen the results of our un-organized mail/email/phone call campaigns. to our state Legislature we are but faceless people, few in numbers and not worthy of being listened to. a face needs to be put on this. a face that can be remembered the next hour or the next week. if we were all to pull together from the four corners of the state that face could become a reality. when folks begin to see that face our numbers would grow. folks would come out of the closet, so to speak, and realize that there is nothing to fear about going public in a big way.

otherwise we are all just wasting our time here and we should curl up into the fetal position and pull the covers over our head for we are too scared to take the next step.

/me bangs head violently on desk

I think I am actually going to have to give up completely after this conversation!

LMTD said:

/me bangs head violently on desk

I think I am actually going to have to give up completely after this conversation!

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you could help make this a reality. or don't you believe in the cause enough?

ETA: all of us could help. the sad part is that many are content to sit in their basement and just complain about it instead of doing something. i believe that's why we in MO are not organized.

Broondog said:

you could help make this a reality. or don't you believe in the cause enough?

ETA: all of us could help. the sad part is that many are content to sit in their basement and just complain about it instead of doing something. i believe that's why we in MO are not organized.

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I have about 400 post on this board, perhaps 200 of them address this very subject. I came here with the FULL INTENT of helping do EXACTLY that. Hell it is brollin1911's fault I am even here. I have read these boards for years but there was never a reason to join because there was never anything to do but talk.

All attempts to even find a cause to throw money at have fallen flat. There are folks workin in all four corners and the middle of the state, all the parts are there except the willingness to work together.

Just had a tiff with "shawn" about this very subject.

You implying I do not believe in the cause enough is misguided. I have no problem at all backing such an adventure, but I do not think there is much of a question as to my being a front man for it. That is unless you want to change the goals to "anger massive amounts of folks" then I qualify.

The effort has a great pay off.

LMTD said:

I have about 400 post on this board, perhaps 200 of them address this very subject. I came here with the FULL INTENT of helping do EXACTLY that. Hell it is brollin1911's fault I am even here. I have read these boards for years but there was never a reason to join because there was never anything to do but talk.

All attempts to even find a cause to throw money at have fallen flat. There are folks workin in all four corners and the middle of the state, all the parts are there except the willingness to work together.

Just had a tiff with "shawn" about this very subject.

You implying I do not believe in the cause enough is misguided. I have no problem at all backing such an adventure, but I do not think there is much of a question as to my being a front man for it. That is unless you want to change the goals to "anger massive amounts of folks" then I qualify.

The effort has a great pay off.

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You and I both know that a venture such as this might just anger massive amounts of folks because we know how people react to firearms in many cases. This is a real possibility no matter who is a front-man.

The other point is that it MUST serve both sides, not just one. You'll have to be readily prepared to have the anti's challenge at the booth, because it's a likelihood and having prepared answers that illustrate that the anti is just uninformed and/or misinformed (aka sheeple) works wonders. This type of venture needs to have info on OC and CCW to properly educate folks as one option may not be as fitting for some as the other. Example: I wouldn't want to push OC for folks living in the projects of STL.

Keep drawing suggestions through this thread to give you plenty of ideas on things that can be done to make it very positive. Involve local firearm instructors at different levels, involve the media, involve the radio, find a pro-2A or firearm related business that's willing to have some sort of promotion or discount coupon/flyer at your booth, etc.

Ok...questions for ya...

Not knowing your background and areas of expertise etc....who has experience in or a desire to help in the following areas:

Website design:
Marketing in print and in the media:
Researching Laws/ordinances/statutes of Missouri:
American History/Constitutional law ie; 2A rights:
Fundraising/sponsorship:
Lobbying the Legislature:
Public speaking:
Graphic design:
Researching crime statistics related to our cause:
Who has experience in laying the groundwork for establishing organizations such as the one were discussing?
What officers/positions would be necessary to operate such a venture:
In general...who knows someone who would be willing to help in these areas?

Please feel free to add to this list any areas you feel would also be helpful or be needed in order to establish an Organized effort.

Just another thought...I think it's very important to make the absolute best effort possible out of the gate, however, I don't think we need to wait to have the slickest brochures etc..before we make an effort. I guess what I'm saying is...let's put together the best initial organization we can...but let's not let having the "perfect" organization from the start keep us from starting. We can always tweek things as we go along.

randyj said:

Website design: none worthy, fooled around a little but suck at it
Marketing in print and in the media: lol not unless stick figures are ok
Researching Laws/ordinances/statutes of Missouri: some of that but many are MUCH much better and actually would recommend lawyer review of any and all opinions in writing
American History/Constitutional law ie; 2A rights: 200 years ago they said it was a good idea for us to have guns, for the last 100 the dipsticks elected have been trying to say it was a bad idea, they were wrong then and remain wrong now.
Fundraising/sponsorship: Not near as hard as one thinks, but most resist asking
Lobbying the Legislature: Little, but not enough time to be nearly as effective as others
Public speaking: tons, told I am good at it, don't know but semi do it for a living for a varied audience
Graphic design: lol stick figures again
Researching crime statistics related to our cause: use others scientificly gathered data
Who has experience in laying the groundwork for establishing organizations such as the one were discussing? Have done it for other chariety orgs, 501 c3 org, I think it would more likely be a c4 though because of political influence
In general...who knows someone who would be willing to help in these areas? more than you know, they seek only a direction to pull on the rope, they will gladly pick it up and pull

Please feel free to add to this list any areas you feel would also be helpful or be needed in order to establish an Organized effort.

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Inserted responses

I think everything already exist required when you consider all interested parties.

I can do simple websites and design as well as graphics.

randyj said:

Not knowing your background and areas of expertise etc....who has experience in or a desire to help in the following areas:

Website design:
Marketing in print and in the media:
Researching Laws/ordinances/statutes of Missouri:
American History/Constitutional law ie; 2A rights:
Fundraising/sponsorship:
Lobbying the Legislature:
Public speaking:
Graphic design:
Researching crime statistics related to our cause:
Who has experience in laying the groundwork for establishing organizations such as the one were discussing?
What officers/positions would be necessary to operate such a venture:
In general...who knows someone who would be willing to help in these areas?

Please feel free to add to this list any areas you feel would also be helpful or be needed in order to establish an Organized effort.

Just another thought...I think it's very important to make the absolute best effort possible out of the gate, however, I don't think we need to wait to have the slickest brochures etc..before we make an effort. I guess what I'm saying is...let's put together the best initial organization we can...but let's not let having the "perfect" organization from the start keep us from starting. We can always tweek things as we go along.

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researching laws and such i can do. there are others better at it but i'll jump in.

researching crime stats i'm in on. in general my Google-Fu is strong.

lobbying the Legislature. someone school me here. does this need to be done in person or can it be done by hammering them with phone calls and/or printed media? i don't get much time off from work but Jeff city runs could be managed on occasion. maybe someone more local would be more useful but i am willing to try.

fundraising/sponsorship. dunno much about this but am willing to learn. i guess one would go around looking for businesses to lend their name and/or money? or maybe local LEO's? i bet i know one Sheriff that would easily jump on board.

website design. i can give good input on this and could maybe even help a little tho i'm a novice at best.

i also have a PDF copy of the Missouri Open Carry pamphlet (author unknown to me) that i got from another member here. it may need to be edited to suit our needs tho i don't have that software. maybe someone else does.


i agree that this adventure doesn't have to be perfect to start, it just needs to "be". all we can do is put 110% in to the effort and get it started. with time it will mature as new ideas/input/members come. i for one am very glad to see this at least hit the planning/idea stage. it's long overdue IMO.

and where's Doc? i thought he'd jump on this.

i just put the word out to the Missouri guys over at Gunsnet.net. maybe some will come by and help out.

i only have like 3 posts at MO-Carry so i have no clout there. maybe someone else will put the bug in their ears?

maybe some of you have other ideas as to where we might be able to garner more support or prospective members.

Broondog....

Broondog said:

researching laws and such i can do. there are others better at it but i'll jump in.

researching crime stats i'm in on. in general my Google-Fu is strong.

lobbying the Legislature. someone school me here. does this need to be done in person or can it be done by hammering them with phone calls and/or printed media? i don't get much time off from work but Jeff city runs could be managed on occasion. maybe someone more local would be more useful but i am willing to try.

fundraising/sponsorship. dunno much about this but am willing to learn. i guess one would go around looking for businesses to lend their name and/or money? or maybe local LEO's? i bet i know one Sheriff that would easily jump on board.

website design. i can give good input on this and could maybe even help a little tho i'm a novice at best.

i also have a PDF copy of the Missouri Open Carry pamphlet (author unknown to me) that i got from another member here. it may need to be edited to suit our needs tho i don't have that software. maybe someone else does.


i agree that this adventure doesn't have to be perfect to start, it just needs to "be". all we can do is put 110% in to the effort and get it started. with time it will mature as new ideas/input/members come. i for one am very glad to see this at least hit the planning/idea stage. it's long overdue IMO.

and where's Doc? i thought he'd jump on this.

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Good stuff to know....I thank you.

Given my schedule, working nights etc....I am available during the day to make contacts with possible sponsor's/soliciting donations/sending out email contacts etc.

Ok..Independence/St.Joe guy's...where are ya?

Comsec....you seem to have some expertise in developing and designing some pretty sharp looking websites. Could you help in that area?

This is our opportunity to step up to the plate and take a few swings. At this point in the game it doesn't matter if they're foul balls or not...lets just make some contact!

Remember, many hands make light work! Take a look at the list and plug yourself in somewhere...even if it's a simple "I'll go with you when go solicit some sponsors etc", or "let me know when you're ready for some money".

Just another thought....I do agree also with the previous poster who mentioned that it was their opinion that BOTH CCW and OC be included in our message. I think this is the right and wise approach.

Who out there can try their hand at composing and articulating our message along the lines that CSHOFF proposed a few posts back? CSHOFF....just a thought...but would you be interested in giving that a try?

LMTD....can you tell us what type of organization we need to be, and guide us in the direction we need to go to start the official organizational process?

Also..what about the NAME of the organization? Let's start coming up with suggestions.
Also..I suppose that we would be wise to take our efforts off this board and deal directly with each other via email/phone etc. So, those who are serious about making this happen please send me an email with your other contact information so we can keep in touch.

We can make this happen!

The thought occurs to me...

Just a thought...but would there be any advantages to us attempting to affliate with an already established organization, wherein we would be known as...example: "The Missouri Chapter of XYZ"? As I say this..I acknowledge that I am not readily aware of any groups that might qualify..but I thought I would put that idea out there.

randyj said:

Not knowing your background and areas of expertise etc....who has experience in or a desire to help in the following areas:

Website design:
Marketing in print and in the media:
Researching Laws/ordinances/statutes of Missouri:
American History/Constitutional law ie; 2A rights:
Fundraising/sponsorship:
Lobbying the Legislature:
Public speaking:
Graphic design:
Researching crime statistics related to our cause:
Who has experience in laying the groundwork for establishing organizations such as the one were discussing?
What officers/positions would be necessary to operate such a venture:
In general...who knows someone who would be willing to help in these areas?

Please feel free to add to this list any areas you feel would also be helpful or be needed in order to establish an Organized effort.

Just another thought...I think it's very important to make the absolute best effort possible out of the gate, however, I don't think we need to wait to have the slickest brochures etc..before we make an effort. I guess what I'm saying is...let's put together the best initial organization we can...but let's not let having the "perfect" organization from the start keep us from starting. We can always tweek things as we go along.

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I have two businesses that I operate and have to keep up with, not to mention two websites that I webmaster, so my time is somewhat limited. That said, I would be happy to help with any graphics design/development/implementation for internet or print (graphics for website(s), print ads, pamphlets, promotional material, etc), and would be willing to try to assist with other administrative tasks that could be done on a "as time permits" basis. In addition, at some point in the future when it becomes relevant, I would be willing to provide a certain amount of promotional discounts, or perhaps even free, training courses that could be used as raffle prizes or as a way to help bring people into the "organization" (specifics could be determined after there is actually an organization to promote). I also have no problems with making a trip to Jeff City for a hearing or an event, provided that I can work it into my schedule.

randyj said:

Just a thought...but would there be any advantages to us attempting to affliate with an already established organization, wherein we would be known as...example: "The Missouri Chapter of XYZ"? As I say this..I acknowledge that I am not readily aware of any groups that might qualify..but I thought I would put that idea out there.

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i think going under another already established organization would have some benifits. for one, having an already established organization might make it look a bit beter then a brand new organization that people arent sure about their creditablity. while ours might be new, we get some creditablity from the affliate organization.

on another note though. you want to read their rules and what they believe in. i mean, being affliated with them, you have to follow their guidelines etc i sure. and see how much control over you would they want. it would kinda suck if they always had to approve everything you did. or if they started telling you that you cant do this or that. especially if they dont help you form the organization. but after you put all the effort into forming the organization, they want to run it like they did all the work on forming it. and some places are like that. they wont want to waste their time or money on starting something, but if that something hits it off. they will try to claim it as their own, if they see anything that could give them a reason to think they have the right to claim it.

i no expert on this. but that is the 2 things i thought should be considered if you were going to look into being under some other organization.

Disappointed...

Well, to be honest I am disappointed in the severe lack of support for wanting to establish an official Organization here in Missouri to promote our cause.

I would however like to thank CSHOFF, Broondog, LMTD and Festus for stepping up to volunteer their time and effort. If there were others who stepped up with their support I thank you as well, but these were the ones I could remember off the top of my head.

This was one of those instances where the "silence was deafening", and I can't help but wonder why.

So I ask all of you who felt you couldn't support the initiative to share with the board the concerns you had concerning it that kept you from making yourself known as one who could step up and help, so we can possibly resolve those concerns so we can try to make this happen.

We've all talked about this time and time again, so please, I would appreciate it if you explain your reasoning so as to better able to analyze what needs to be done, or undone.

Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you all.

An organization establishes an hierarchy, like of leaders and members, a majority and a minority. Democratic consensus enables failure of leadership. Either we are all equal or we are not.

Hey all,

This is a good discussion and I would encourage you to chase it. As I have read through this thread, several are touching on some very good key points....I am a non-profit executive director and have helped marshal organizational development around issues that are important to a number of folks....and to me, this is what your organizational ideas are flirting around.

Most organizing of "organized groups", starts with a grass roots effort (like this) and a "rally point" for people that care to gather around (Open Carry, Legislative reform through lobbying, education, whatever)...it usually morphs from this kind of a discussion to the next step of getting together, where only three or four folks decide to formalize the forming a "non-profit" with mission statements, by-laws, leadership framework, and so on.....if there are some of you that are heading in that direction, check out the state laws for non-profits...there are different designations for different types (Churches and most non-profits are 501c3's, political lobbyists or designations like 501c4's have slightly different parameters, but it is mostly about the rules that you need to follow for IRS reporting) which may freak some folks out on this thread but...there are others depending on what you want to do....mostly these are for IRS "letters of determination"....they allow you to fund raise, collect membership dues, and other activities to develop revenue sources that are then poured back into the goals and intiatives of the organization....If you get that far and are interested in pursuing it, I can point you to a number of resources that are free, and will get you headed there.

Some of the comments regarding message impact, community education, venue opportunities, legislative change are all enhanced by formalizing into a state organization. Affiliations are different than "State Chapters"...as one is financially independent of the other....and if you're a "chapter", it's important to ensure that the local efforts, goals, desires...PERFECTLY match the group that you're associating yourself with....it goes to their support of local issues (and how they do it - If someone else is controlling the checkbook, your done!- IMO)......

This is vs an independent but "affiliated" group that has it's own goals but seeks to find "common" goals that leverage both organizations needs....(An example would be to affiliate with NRA on support of some local issue, the benifit or loss to the local organization is in recognition, or credibility - mutually supportive but exclusive goals)....

Some people are joiners, others are more independent as you have likely seen on this board...and from all kinds of political pursuasions...but in the end, if you want to organize locally, you need:

...A "rally point" for membership development

...A variety of revenue resources to underwrite the cost of the mutally agreed goals and intiatives

...Committee volunteers, willing to donate time (and intially a few bucks), and experience to the cause and the causes.

One of the first steps (after you decide to progress this), is to look at a variety of successful non-profit models....

Most all of them start with a dedicated and committed grass roots need, that at some point, then realizes to leverage their impact need to organize themselves in some way.

You (we) can continue to do what we're doing, and continue to get the results that we see.

Good luck with this, if the time is right it will flourish....

Feel free to PM me if you'd like.....

cshoff said:

Ask yourself this; who is going to be more effective at getting out their message and make a more resistant target to half-truths and distortions? A group of guys in a booth that represent the NRA, or a group of guys in a booth that have no affiliation, but advocate the same basic ideals as the NRA?

Like it or not, organized and official groups generally add legitimacy to ideals and platforms. They say to people, "hey, there are many of us who feel this way, and we have an entire network that can and will vouch for the validity of our goals and mission, as well as a strong support system that will stand up to any scrutiny".

Yep, every organization must start somewhere. And the people starting the organization must decide if it's more beneficial to have that network and support system at least partially in place before taking their message "to the street", or if taking the message "to the street" is the way to try to build that network and support system. The first can be done with little or no risk, while the second could be subject to it's share of pitfalls.

I'm not knocking Randy's idea at all. To the contrary; if you want to bring people into your movement, you'll have to get your message out there. But at this point, what is your message and where is your movement? If you can't define either, how do you plan on bringing people into it?

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randyj said:

Well, to be honest I am disappointed in the severe lack of support for wanting to establish an official Organization here in Missouri to promote our cause.

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You will get used to it. I actually think it is sort of ingrained into the personality types whom choose open carry. There are some very contrasting thoughts behind it really and five or six different motivations. Without any doubt at all, a common binder in those personality types is independence which does not lend itself to grouping real often.

Overall you have to look closely at the game you intend on playing and it is a game. If it is an educational org only, no political interface it can be a c3, if it is going to lobby at all, it had better be a c4 or you will have tax trouble.

The political climate is changing again and gun rights are going to be sliding down the list of things for the politicians to have to futz with, some whom are disconnected deny this, however it is an impending reality.

A lot of folks are a bit busy these days and another thing going on would be an inconvenience to them they are not willing to deal with at all.

While some fully believe there should be an org, far fewer are interested beyond the initial rally cry.

I have no problem assisting the right folks doing the right thing, I have grown weary enough of trying to see it come true coupled with the political landscape changing enough it is starting to be too little too late. That does not mean it is a waste, but IMHO it may well take another shift in politics to be effective and for that reason alone it is a good idea to get it started.

Then again, according to this interesting group of folks, "I am not really for OC anyway"

Doug Huffman said:

An organization establishes an hierarchy, like of leaders and members, a majority and a minority. Democratic consensus enables failure of leadership. Either we are all equal or we are not.

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The rise of missouricarry.com is a classic example of this. The founder kept total control as should be until it became a C3 organization then a board of directors was elected from and by the membership and they were supposed to have control but the original founder kept the BOD under his thumb and control. Now it is going to be merged with MSSA. Who knows what that will bring.
So be very careful with forming a organization or it will have the same problem.