Idea on educating the community...

After reading several of these threads, and realizing that education is the KEY for our fellow citizens to understand what OC is all about...what do you think of this idea.

Here in Independence, Mo....every year we have a community celebration on the square called "Santa-Cali-Gon" days.

Most of you have probably heard of it, or even attended it. If you have been to it you have noticed that like with most celebrations like that they have all sorts of booths etc...hawking their wares and promoting other things.

What do you think of the idea of seeing if "WE" who support OC can have our own Booth promoting OC in Missouri? We can obviously hand out brochures, answer questions....be able to give our neighbors the opportunity to meet us, to ask questions etc. I think something as simple as that would go a long way in putting us "out there" in the public view.

I would be interested in your thoughts....

randyj said:

I would be interested in your thoughts....

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I think if there was any OC org in the state, sponsoring such a thing would be a fantastic idea both for the public and the org.

With out an org, it could have mor pit falls than it would be worth and if not handled in a delicate manner instead of education, a bunch of guys playing cowboy would be the overall perception that could be left.

Never forget, you seek to educate some whom specificly seek not to be educated and in doing so, they have the freedom to express their opinion as well and they very well may do so in a very negative way without regard for the truth. With out an org to back those truths up and counter any attack, your success may be far more limited.

I think it's a brilliant idea! I go every year.

Lmtd..

"With out an org, it could have mor pit falls than it would be worth and if not handled in a delicate manner instead of education, a bunch of guys playing cowboy would be the overall perception that could be left."

Having an "official" organization would be wonderful to have, and I understand perfectly the benefits that would be derived from having one, however, NOT having an "official" organization does not change my character or my personality, nor would it change whether or not a person's perception of me as individual would be good or bad.

For you to infer that we as individuals would be perceived as " a bunch of guys playing cowboy" simply because we were not affliated under the umbrella of an official organization, quite frankly is a slap in the face to us, and I find it offensive.

randyj said:

" quite frankly is a slap in the face to us, and I find it offensive.

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Then you are EXACTLY like an anti, looking for a reason to get offended.

When I wish to offend you i can assure you there will be no doubt of my intent, it is crystal clear for one and all.

If you do not think the anti's or the news media would portray it as exactly that, I think you are mistaken, I think that is EXACTLY how it might get spun regardless of your behavior. The day you think this battle is fair is the day you should sell all your guns and give up.

I get the feeling you are indeed talking about a bunch of guys, politely meet and greeting folks, handing out informational papers, perhaps even inflating balloons for kids or what ever and doing nothing wrong at all. Then some anti decides to get OFFENDED and goes on a tirade to the head of the fair, some anti-city council person paints all of your good deeds in a bad way and the story remains one sided because there is no organization to stand up and say

"Nothing happened but some kids got balloons and we passed out information on safely carrying a firearm and class schedules were included to bring about firearm safety awareness."

So since you so readily identify with the anti's strong desire to find reasons to become offended why don't you ..... never mind, it ain't worth it, but it would have looked a lot more that way had it had ill intent, buzz off.

LMTD didn't intend to offend anyone. Not to mention...He's right. If you are going to be hosting a booth it is to put the face of a business out there. Get you recognized, get people interested. That face should be gentle, approachable, and have a smile on it.

Even if this is not what he meant, I am personally saying, I would be no where against someone telling others they can not participate. If people have the wrong attitude or wrong appearance for this particular occasion that is their problem.

They sure as hell can exercise their right to OC and I hope they do, but if I were running a booth on OC, I would want it very controlled, very welcoming, at least 80% well groomed, and very polite.

Its not even just that big boy, they need a reference to recall after the event. some where too look up online when they get home or four weeks from now when they decide to go ahead and buy a gun.

I am actually glad he took it wrong, it exposes exactly what might happen if an unaffiliated group has a rational discussion and someone seeking to get offended does, the original point was lost forever.

It does not have to be a new OC group formed just for the purpose, there are plenty of gun clubs in the KC area that could cosponsor the event and get their members out there saying hi to folks.

Don't matter, I ain't goin and Randy wants to think I am just being mean and I really could care less, I was just answering his question in a polite manner and I won't bother doing it again.

LMTD said:

When I wish to offend you i can assure you there will be no doubt of my intent, it is crystal clear for one and all.

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:lol: He's 100% correct.

Lmtd

"Then you are EXACTLY like an anti, looking for a reason to get offended."

My point is, having met many of the men who would most likely be participating in this venture, to a man they're articulate and well spoken. They're level headed and would seem to me at least, to be men of high character with much common sense.

In short, they would be more than capable of putting the "best face" forward to the public, and I feel would be able to more than adequately explain our position with respect to OC in general, and Missouri in particular.

The problem I had with your initial response, and make no mistake I didn't misunderstand you meaning or intent, was your continual insistance to paint with a broad brush and to try to characterize us as "just wanting to play cowboy" (you have made this statement previously, although this time you were implying that would be the public perception)..simply because of a lack of affiliation under an official organization.

Again, do not misunderstand, you and I are in complete agreement that marshalling forces....and becoming organized would greatly enhance our efforts, HOWEVER, my personal feeling is that even without an official organization at this time, it should not deter us from taking other initiatives to further our cause.

You have politely berated some on this forum for not taking initiative, and worse, for not being fully converted and committed to the OC cause simply for not taking more of what you would consider more aggressive steps toward organization. You have stated previously that those who would choose to OC, but not choose or work hard toward organization...were simply grown men wanting to play cowboy.

So now, here we have an idea of what we might be able to do to jumpstart if you will a more pervasive grassroots effort to garner support for our cause, and educate the community at the same time...and you say "NO"..better not do that unless your organized. So, my position is to take action to garner the support we need to adequately organize, and at the same time educate the communtiy.

Personally, I don't feel that we would encounter the amount of animosity and citizen angst as you do...but unless we never make any effort....we never will know.

Having said all that....I extend my apologies to you and to say I'm sorry. You and I are on the same team. I need you..and you need me. We all need each other..and the last thing we all need is for us to be divided in our own house.

Big Boy

"LMTD didn't intend to offend anyone. Not to mention...He's right."

So you don't mind that LMTD feels that your "just playing cowboy" when you OC, if you're not working overtime to organize?

I feel pretty confident that everyone on this forum would welcome a well honed and organized effort so as to more effectively campaign our message. That was never the issue. Thats a no-brainer.

I was simply saying....that having met many of you men....that even IF we were to sponsor a booth without officially being organized...I feel that we're more than capable of putting a positive foot forward.

Besides....I feel that our chances would be great of gaining much support after one or two seasons of promoting our cause, to the point where we would have the strength in numbers that we're needing to officially organize in order to go foward in a more forceful and professional way.

Ok, I am not real good at communicating on line with folks whom lack any sensible level of reading comprehension (that is CLOSE to me being rude randy) but I am indeed going to give it one last shot and after that you are invited to shut your freakin pie hole (here is rude)

"With out an org, it could have mor pit falls than it would be worth and if not handled in a delicate manner instead of education, a bunch of guys playing cowboy would be the overall perception that could be left."

What parts of "could" and "overall perception that could be left" is it that you seem to misunderstand?

If you can not see that directly implies that folks doing the right thing but not having an organization to be available after to clear up any misconceptions brought forward by others it could bring more harm than good.

I have never stated you or anyone else was playing cow boy and in fact have repeatedly stated that I think Doc does a great job, I also happen to think the guy carrying an AK47 pistol on a shoulder sling is doing a horrible job.

Your inability to comprehend the difference in what is actually types and what you wanted it to say so you could become offended is scary and I highly recommend enrollment in the local library for remedial reading courses to eliminate mistakes similar in nature the rest of your life.

You do not have to worry much about rude because it is more likely I will just ignore you since I can not communicate with persons whom can not effectively read or try and read only four words of a twenty word sentence and then pretend they have a clue what it means.

Good luck at your fair.

What it amounts to, IMHO, is not putting the horse before the cart. If you are representing a certain organization, you will have something to promote, and you can put it in writing or in official statements you might make to any media types that happen to be around. For example:

"We are here to promote the mission of XYZ organization. Our goals are to promote safe and responsible firearms ownership and use through education, to help recruit youth's and new shooters into the fun and safe sport of recreational shooting, and to organize and educate citizens of this state so that they are better prepared to communicate with their legislators about laws and regulations that affect their 2nd Amendment rights. More information can be found in the free and informative booklets we've been handing out all day, or by visiting our website at www.XYZorganization.org."

Alternatively, without having some organizational backing, it's really no more than a group of guys going over talking points. While your points may be valid and reasonable, they will never be viewed with an equal amount of credibility that the points of a bonafide, organized and official group would receive (such is life, and nobody said it was fair). ,

i see a lot of talk about organization. 'you won't get far without being organized' 'with no website to reference y'all will just be standing there talking' 'without being organized you'll get no respect'

OK, so why aren't we organized in MO? seriously. are we too afraid to take the steps needed to get there? and for the bright ones here, what are those steps. are they seriously that difficult?

and where do organizations originate? does some guy just decide one day "i want to be an organization" and hope folks will sign up and/or follow? or do a few good men get together and go for a grassroots start? a few handbills here, a few posters there, maybe a booth at a fair?

what's to say that randyj's idea isn't the start of of something big and respectable? should his idea be shot down in its infancy just because a few perceive the worst? shouldn't he be applauded for actually being willing to take the first step that apparently the rest of you nay sayers are unwilling to take?

maybe it's a good idea and maybe it's not. but how do we really know until it's tried? or is it that you guys are all "see'ers" and are already absolutely positive of the outcome because you are somehow all knowing?

randyj, i say go for it. make it the best that you can with the resources you have available. if it doesn't work out at least you can say that you tried, which is more than some folks are willing to do. this single action could lead to more like it by you and/or others and could be the start of something big.

negative talk is cheap on the internet. writing emails and making phone calls to Senators is the easy way out. getting out in the public eye more than carrying at Wally World just may be the key to getting favorable reviews.

Broondog said:

what's to say that randyj's idea isn't the start of of something big and respectable? should his idea be shot down in its infancy just because a few perceive the worst? shouldn't he be applauded for actually being willing to take the first step that apparently the rest of you nay sayers are unwilling to take?

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I do not think it is a BAD idea, I think it just needs additional support to avoid the pit falls you can have when you do not have support.

nay sayers? I am not sure that dog will hunt.

There is a big difference in someone asking for advice and then not being happy with the advice and nay saying.

Broondog said:

what's to say that randyj's idea isn't the start of of something big and respectable?

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And who's to say that there won't be enough "sheeple" that see it thinking it IS a bunch of grown men wanting to play cowboy?

Broondog said:

this single action could lead to more like it by you and/or others and could be the start of something big.

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Your right, it COULD be the start of something big. It could be the start of people getting organized and fighting the big-bad cowboy types that want to carry guns around and scare them and their children. It COULD be the start of something along the lines of a law or ordinance that BANS ALL OPEN CARRY because it does look like a bunch of guys who just want to wear guns.

See where I'm going with this? Randy, you act like there is no possible way this could hurt, and I agree with LMTD (jeez... see what you made me do .... :lol: ), this could hurt more than help if not done correctly. There are alot of folks out there that ARE scared of you carrying your gun in the open. These are the people that we need to make sure have a place to go and see the goals and the principals behind the movement. Without that, I'm afraid you MAY look like wannabe cowboys to the anti's.

I'm not trying to be negative, I just see the other side like LMTD does. If not done right, this thing could backfire. I'm on your side, believe me. I just am pointing out the other side of the coin.

Randy,

Sorry I got rude but I return what I get or better said what I feel I get.

I am a realist, perhaps your view and broondogs is that I am also a skeptic. This is not really true, I just watch the reactions of the other side very closely because they lie and have no sense of fair play, in fact they drive emotions ONLY. We have this reporter in the St Louis area, Jaco who is about as large a hypocrite as exist. He talks anti-gun all the time yet himself did indeed have a CCW and carries a gun in his car, I suppose this means he just thinks he is better than you and I.

There are two parts to any discussion, the message sent vs the message recieved. The third element is what others turn it into and if there is not someone to stand up for the folks who go, the brady/million mom'ers may very well lie and say all kinds of things to turn it into something it never was, haveing an org behind it prevents them from doing that and identifies reasonable folks whom will counter any attack.

Aka united we stand, divided they can pick us apart.

Broondog said:

i see a lot of talk about organization. 'you won't get far without being organized' 'with no website to reference y'all will just be standing there talking' 'without being organized you'll get no respect'

OK, so why aren't we organized in MO? seriously. are we too afraid to take the steps needed to get there? and for the bright ones here, what are those steps. are they seriously that difficult?

and where do organizations originate? does some guy just decide one day "i want to be an organization" and hope folks will sign up and/or follow? or do a few good men get together and go for a grassroots start? a few handbills here, a few posters there, maybe a booth at a fair?

what's to say that randyj's idea isn't the start of of something big and respectable? should his idea be shot down in its infancy just because a few perceive the worst? shouldn't he be applauded for actually being willing to take the first step that apparently the rest of you nay sayers are unwilling to take?

maybe it's a good idea and maybe it's not. but how do we really know until it's tried? or is it that you guys are all "see'ers" and are already absolutely positive of the outcome because you are somehow all knowing?

randyj, i say go for it. make it the best that you can with the resources you have available. if it doesn't work out at least you can say that you tried, which is more than some folks are willing to do. this single action could lead to more like it by you and/or others and could be the start of something big.

negative talk is cheap on the internet. writing emails and making phone calls to Senators is the easy way out. getting out in the public eye more than carrying at Wally World just may be the key to getting favorable reviews.

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Ask yourself this; who is going to be more effective at getting out their message and make a more resistant target to half-truths and distortions? A group of guys in a booth that represent the NRA, or a group of guys in a booth that have no affiliation, but advocate the same basic ideals as the NRA?

Like it or not, organized and official groups generally add legitimacy to ideals and platforms. They say to people, "hey, there are many of us who feel this way, and we have an entire network that can and will vouch for the validity of our goals and mission, as well as a strong support system that will stand up to any scrutiny".

Yep, every organization must start somewhere. And the people starting the organization must decide if it's more beneficial to have that network and support system at least partially in place before taking their message "to the street", or if taking the message "to the street" is the way to try to build that network and support system. The first can be done with little or no risk, while the second could be subject to it's share of pitfalls.

I'm not knocking Randy's idea at all. To the contrary; if you want to bring people into your movement, you'll have to get your message out there. But at this point, what is your message and where is your movement? If you can't define either, how do you plan on bringing people into it?

Cshoff...

"Ask yourself this; who is going to be more effective at getting out their message and make a more resistant target to half-truths and distortions? A group of guys in a booth that represent the NRA, or a group of guys in a booth that have no affiliation, but advocate the same basic ideals as the NRA?

"Like it or not, organized and official groups generally add legitimacy to ideals and platforms. They say to people, "hey, there are many of us who feel this way, and we have an entire network that can and will vouch for the validity of our goals and mission, as well as a strong support system that will stand up to any scrutiny".

Yep, every organization must start somewhere. And the people starting the organization must decide if it's more beneficial to have that network and support system at least partially in place before taking their message "to the street", or if taking the message "to the street" is the way to try to build that network and support system. The first can be done with little or no risk, while the second could be subject to it's share of pitfalls.

I'm not knocking Randy's idea at all. To the contrary; if you want to bring people into your movement, you'll have to get your message out there. But at this point, what is your message and where is your movement? If you can't define either, how do you plan on bringing people into it?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks so much in responding and communicating in a respectful and civil way! I have always appreciated very much how you show respect for the viewpoints of others, and you always seem to be able to articulate your thoughts and views in a clear and concise way which I appreciate.

Having been a former Air Traffic Controller for many years...I can appreciate the importance of communicating effectively, of which there are always two elements....listening and speaking. Bad things can happen quickly if we don't listen and then we make decisions based upon what we thought we heard.

I have always tried to heed to that old saying of "seek first to understand, then to be understood." I have sought to understand what it is that we want to accomplish here in MO. with respect to OC. I understand that having an Organization already established is the optimal way to proceed. I also understand that it's always best to research and to bring to bear as many resources to a cause that we can possibly muster.

But, given my nature...I am not prone to "paralysis by over analysis". I just sense that it is time to take some initiative at some level to begin to move this ball forward. That is not to say that I favor anything that could be interpreted as "half-cocked" or "fly by night" either.

CSHOFF....I value very much your thoughts on things, and given your level of knowledge and expertise and your ability to communicate effectively....I welcome more of your thoughts and ideas on what you might suggest we do going forward.

Broondog...

Broondog said:

i see a lot of talk about organization. 'you won't get far without being organized' 'with no website to reference y'all will just be standing there talking' 'without being organized you'll get no respect'

OK, so why aren't we organized in MO? seriously. are we too afraid to take the steps needed to get there? and for the bright ones here, what are those steps. are they seriously that difficult?

and where do organizations originate? does some guy just decide one day "i want to be an organization" and hope folks will sign up and/or follow? or do a few good men get together and go for a grassroots start? a few handbills here, a few posters there, maybe a booth at a fair?

what's to say that randyj's idea isn't the start of of something big and respectable? should his idea be shot down in its infancy just because a few perceive the worst? shouldn't he be applauded for actually being willing to take the first step that apparently the rest of you nay sayers are unwilling to take?

maybe it's a good idea and maybe it's not. but how do we really know until it's tried? or is it that you guys are all "see'ers" and are already absolutely positive of the outcome because you are somehow all knowing?

randyj, i say go for it. make it the best that you can with the resources you have available. if it doesn't work out at least you can say that you tried, which is more than some folks are willing to do. this single action could lead to more like it by you and/or others and could be the start of something big.

negative talk is cheap on the internet. writing emails and making phone calls to Senators is the easy way out. getting out in the public eye more than carrying at Wally World just may be the key to getting favorable reviews.

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I appreciate your support. My only goal in bringing this up at all....was that as I read these various threads...it just hit me like a ton of bricks that those of us here in Independence have an absolute perfect forum and setting to get our message out to thousands of people over the course of just 3 days.

As I've mentioned...I certainly agree with everyone that having an established Organization in place is the optimal way to go. My struggle is that I am not convinced that moving forward or taking some initiative without it will hurt our cause, IF...IF...those who participate look sharp and professional, understand the message we're wanting to promote and come prepared to articulate that message with some zeal (not fanaticism) and enthusiasim.

Those who participate should do some soul searching and ask themselves if they truly feel they have those traits of self-control and patience when confronted with those who have STRONG ANTI gun sentiments. They must ask themselves how they would actually react to such tirades if they were to encounter them.

This promotion is not unlike any other "sales job". We promote our product by having a clear and concise message, both verbably and in print. Our attitude should be one of simply wanting to "share" our message, NOT convert them to our cause. We should have or strive to develop those communication skill sets that will help us communicate ie; make direct eye contact, smile, listen, answer thoughtfully with the goal being to resolve their concerns.

But, being the ultimate team player...I will ponder this some more as I seek to gain some more understanding from those on this board whom I've come to respect.

But, I do feel it's time we decide to take some action.

Thanks again for your support for the idea.

randyj said:

After reading several of these threads, and realizing that education is the KEY for our fellow citizens to understand what OC is all about...what do you think of this idea.

Here in Independence, Mo....every year we have a community celebration on the square called "Santa-Cali-Gon" days.

Most of you have probably heard of it, or even attended it. If you have been to it you have noticed that like with most celebrations like that they have all sorts of booths etc...hawking their wares and promoting other things.

What do you think of the idea of seeing if "WE" who support OC can have our own Booth promoting OC in Missouri? We can obviously hand out brochures, answer questions....be able to give our neighbors the opportunity to meet us, to ask questions etc. I think something as simple as that would go a long way in putting us "out there" in the public view.

I would be interested in your thoughts....

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Careful here Randy. Such a thing might stir up a problem with local LEOs and the community in that they may try to use the "disorderly conduct" catch-all to stop you. You might actually have to involve your local LEOs to see about doing this properly with as little conflict as possible and you know someone is bound to make a stink over it. Local LEOs may come at you from the angle that you'll be encouraging folks to OC in an environment that the LEOs would prefer that it not occur.

You'll want printed material (statutes, Castle Doctrine, CCW info, use of force info, etc) to "educate" folks and plenty of statistical data, especially local and regional violent crime statistics. (we know the anti's love statistics until we illustrate they just twisted the actual data) Pocket Constitutions wouldn't hurt if you can find an organization willing to donate them.

Best of luck getting something like this rolling.