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Thread: Does this qualify as an open carry incident?

  1. #1
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    Does this qualify as an open carry incident?

    I sincerely hope this was not one of us. I would like to believe everyone that carries has their head screwed on right but that is obviously not the case!

    http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/F...8182010/569416

  2. #2
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    I agree with the comment that he was probably in the clear until he sat on the tailgate. Then he's invading personal space and violating personal property.

    But morally, he's no better than the jackbooted thug who pulled his gun on the motorcyclist in Maryland for speeding.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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  3. #3
    Regular Member tdbarge's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the MWAG was sitting on his OWN tailgate. And that was after he had the gun in his hand when they both got out of their vehicles.

  4. #4
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tdbarge View Post
    I'm pretty sure the MWAG was sitting on his OWN tailgate. And that was after he had the gun in his hand when they both got out of their vehicles.
    My mistake. I can see how I may have read that incorrectly.

    However, is brandishing a felony?

    Not in this instance: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    In order to make an arrest an officer must witness the supposed crime, otherwise the "victim" must swear a warrant with a magistrate, right?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    This story is severely lacking in details, which we can only hope will come out in a trial if it gets that far. No way to tell how threatening the "complainant" was toward the gun holder. We've hashed over and over again that you don't have to be armed to be a threat.

    ETA: Oops, I misread the story... the gun owner clearly instigated this incident with the yelling, but the complainant then escalated it by stopping to further the conversation. Both need to be sent to bed without any supper...

    The most troubling aspect of this from the OC point of view (IMHO) is why the OCer didn't just drive away.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 08-18-2010 at 01:48 PM.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I agree with the comment that he was probably in the clear until he sat on the tailgate. Then he's invading personal space and violating personal property.

    But morally, he's no better than the jackbooted thug who pulled his gun on the motorcyclist in Maryland for speeding.
    maybe.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Let's break this down and see who is REALLY the aggressor...

    Driver A is puttering down US-1

    Driver B pulls up beside him and calls him a slowpoke, and makes some hand gestures.

    Driver B passes, then pulls off to the shoulder.

    Driver A pulls off behind him and gets out, shouting and gesturing.

    Driver B exits vehicle with gun in hand.

    more shouting, and waving.

    Both drivers leave the scene.

    Driver B follows Driver A and parks in the same parking lot, wearing gun in holster.

    Police are called.


    MISTAKE 1: The slow driver should have NEVER pulled off behind the screaming, speedy driver.

    MISTAKE 2: The armed driver should have never exited his vehicle when the other guy pulled off behind him--he should have just pulled away and scooted on down the road.

    MISTAKE 3: Driver B should have never unholstered his firearm before he was threatened with deadly force (which never occurred from Driver 1 according to the report, but that is still pending investigation...)

    MISTAKE 4: Driver B should have never followed the slowpoke to his home/business/whatever.

    MISTAKE 5: Driver A should never leave his home without being armed...

    What we have here is TWO goofballs--one with a gun, and one who drives like a grandpa--and a little too much testosterone on BOTH sides of the equation. Luckily nobody was shot or injured.

    Both people were aggressors. Both are at fault. Both attempted to escalate the situation, and "flex their muscles". Both APPEAR to be short-tempered a$$hats with chips on their shoulders. Neither should be trusted to operate a motor vehicle on a public highway, IMO...

    Some people probably shouldn't be carrying. And likewise, some people probably shouldn't be driving. From the sounds of this report, I think BOTH people involved fit BOTH classes...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 08-18-2010 at 01:32 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The most troubling aspect of this from the OC point of view (IMHO) is why the OCer didn't just drive away.
    This is where I was coming from. I’m just as guilty of having made one fingered salutes as the next guy but voluntarily moving into an escalating scenario is a bad idea.

    As a side note many folks here believe OC is a PR campaign. With that in mind who’s to say the “brandishing” wasn’t the simple act of holstering the sidearm after exiting the vehicle? With no details it is all left to the reader’s perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Driver B follows Driver A and parks in the same parking lot, wearing gun in holster.
    The article says that Driver A actually followed Driver B in the parking lot.

    snip: At that point, the victim noticed that the suspect had a holster on his hip and a handgun in his right hand, which was down at his side. The two then returned to their vehicles and the suspect began driving toward 925 Corporate Drive as the complainant followed him through the parking lot.

    Read originial ==>> Fredericksburg.com - Drivers in Stafford argue; one charged - page 1 FLS http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/F...#ixzz0wypoclyO

    Driver A seemed to be the main aggressor in my opinion. He pulled up behind the gun carrier on the side of the road and exited his vehicle, and then followed Driver B in the parking lot. Driver B's biggest mistake was exiting his own vehicle with gun drawn. Of course driving away would have been Driver B's very best option, but I believe he would have been justified in displaying his gun if he had remained in his vehicle and Driver A had approached in a threatening manner.

  10. #10
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I agree with the comment that he was probably in the clear until he sat on the tailgate. Then he's invading personal space and violating personal property.

    But morally, he's no better than the jackbooted thug who pulled his gun on the motorcyclist in Maryland for speeding.
    It sounds like he was sitting on his own tailgate. Understandable. I wouldn't leave my vehicle alone if someone followed me into a parking lot.
    Last edited by simmonsjoe; 08-18-2010 at 03:52 PM.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  11. #11
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    Just to add to the confusion, it appears the carrier works in the building where he was found.

  12. #12
    Regular Member KaosDad's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, all I can see is Judge Harry Stone from Night Court locking the two of them up, together, overnight then sending them both to anger management classes.


    Well, then there's Markie Post, but that's a different matter.

  13. #13
    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    For fear of someone calling the police and exclaiming that I have brandished my weapon and they saw me do it I have made a very small modification to my G30 so I can have some way of setting it apart when LE arrives. Since this is my carry pistol and that is all I use it for I chose a location on the slide hidden by the holster and affixed 3 pieces of bright yellow colored 100mph tape to the slide.

    Should someone call the police and claim I brandished they should be able to identify any distinguishing marks or colors of my firearm ( According to them I brandished it so they would undoubtedly see this bright yellow mark on the front of the gun )

    Anyone have any thoughts on this .. good/bad ?
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    Anyone have any thoughts on this .. good/bad ?
    Absolutely…..anything you can do to distinguish your sidearm from another without making it public is a good thing IMHO.

    Specific Case in point: A little better than ten years ago now a coworker that I didn’t get along with accused me of threatening her with a gun.

    She knew I carried from conversations at work.

    When we ran into each other at the grocery store she called the Sheriff. When the deputies arrived they immediately detained me (read arrested). Not knowing what I know now I tried to talk them out of leaving me alone. At the time I was 22 and only CCed my ONLY handgun a 92FS STAINLESS. Fortunately what she described to the deputies was a “big black gun”. They left after yelling at her for wasting their time and lecturing me on how no one but police should carry.
    Now that I OC constantly I haven’t put much thought towards it. Especially considering I carry a full size 1911 that never goes unnoticed. I should probably consider something similar, stopping short of painting the muzzle orange of course!

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Oh ****...

    Here comes kwikrnu and his bucket of orange paint.

    but really, Rottie, that is an excellent Idea. I'll be doing something similar soon.

    I learn something new every day on this board!
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    Thank you, and being new, I REALLY am learning something new every day here .. I seem to catch myself reading for hours .. knowledge is power and strength is in numbers.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    No bright yellow tape or orange reflective paint for me!

    If and when the SHTF, I do NOT want the BG's eyes focusing on my gun which will likely be center of mass on me as I look over the sights.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No bright yellow tape or orange reflective paint for me!


    More for me!

    The slow poke driver sounds like the instigator.

  19. #19
    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    Question Concur

    The slow driver followed the MWAG. when the MWAG pulled over (car trouble??) the slowpoke pulled in behind him.

    Maybe MWAG was carrying on his seat or dash, (Visible to police) and was transferring it to the holster as he was getting out (Not wanting to leave it on the seat where someone could take it while he was distracted.)

    MWAG sits on the back of his truck. slowpoke may be threatening him with his own vehicle.

    MWAG goes on to his place of business. Slowpoke decides to 'get even' and call the cops.

    I HOPE MWAG wasn't an idiot, and if it was like I described, Slowpoke gets slammed with a civil suit for harassment and false arrest. or something to that effect.

    IANAL, but I DO believe in justice and fair play. I give the benifit of the doubt, and believe that God takes pity on stupid animals.

    the only part I wonder about is the legal aspects of step 2 above...WHEN is it safe to handle a firearm when going OC in a car to OC on my person?

  20. #20
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Stafford_1911 View Post
    Absolutely…..anything you can do to distinguish your sidearm from another without making it public is a good thing IMHO.

    Specific Case in point: A little better than ten years ago now a coworker that I didn’t get along with accused me of threatening her with a gun.

    She knew I carried from conversations at work.

    When we ran into each other at the grocery store she called the Sheriff. When the deputies arrived they immediately detained me (read arrested). Not knowing what I know now I tried to talk them out of leaving me alone. At the time I was 22 and only CCed my ONLY handgun a 92FS STAINLESS. Fortunately what she described to the deputies was a “big black gun”. They left after yelling at her for wasting their time and lecturing me on how no one but police should carry.
    Now that I OC constantly I haven’t put much thought towards it. Especially considering I carry a full size 1911 that never goes unnoticed. I should probably consider something similar, stopping short of painting the muzzle orange of course!
    Why was she not charged with falsifying a report (or something similar)
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    In MD, where it is for all intents and purposes IMPOSSIBLE to legally carry a firearm, THIS is is how THEY do "road rage":

    http://wjz.com/local/traffic.signal....2.1866881.html

    The OP's story from VA may be two goofballs, but at least there were no shots fired.

    In MD, when you dis someone on the highway, they will bust a cap in your a$$, leave you to die, and drive away...

    So, Gov. O'Malley, how IS that "gun control" thing working out for ya?...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 08-19-2010 at 11:26 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  22. #22
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    Well they finally put the case info into the record system case ID is GC10018621-00.
    http://epwsgdp1.courts.state.va.us/g.../caseSearch.do

    The charge as listed is “POINT/BRANDISH FIREARM” misdemeanor class 1. The complainant listed is one of the deputies.

    I was under the impression that an LEO had to witness a misdemeanor in order to arrest for it. Is that incorrect?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt_Kowalski View Post
    Why was she not charged with falsifying a report (or something similar)
    Because it was Stafford? It has been my experience most of them do whatever however they want.

  24. #24
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stafford_1911 View Post
    I was under the impression that an LEO had to witness a misdemeanor in order to arrest for it. Is that incorrect?
    I asked the same question above.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stafford_1911 View Post
    I was under the impression that an LEO had to witness a misdemeanor in order to arrest for it. Is that incorrect?
    LEO must witness the misdemeanor to arrest without a warrant, but can swear out a petition for a warrant on affidavit based on information provided by third parties. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+19.2-72

    And to answer the as-yet unasked question, LEO can detain you for purposes of investigation while obtaining sufficient information to present in an affidavit for a warrant.

    stay safe.

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