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Thread: Thinking of hitting up AB&E Friday and Monday Evening

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Thinking of hitting up AB&E Friday and Monday Evening

    Never been to AB&E before, but definitely thinking about going after I wake up (5-6pm; i work midnights). I doubt my wife will come if I'm OCing, but she might... Regardless if she comes or not, does anyone wanna meet up and get a bite or something?

    It's always more fun to OC in numbers imo... especially when having fun. When people see us having fun with guns on our hips, and not being the evil and devious kill-happys that they're expecting, it helps liven the mood for just about everyone.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:27 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    Just throwing in my 2 cents here (anyone is free to do WHATEVER they want - as long as it's legal of course).

    I suggest not going to AB&E as a LARGE group of OCers. Sure no matter what you do, the anti's are going to be negative regardless, but why give them more ammo ("look at ALL of them here, rubbing it in our faces").

    On the same hand, OCing in too small of a group could be dangerous too. Obviously there have some people who have recieved harrassing phone calls, rumors of people wanting to OC bananas and instigate OCer's, and possibly squirting OCer's with squirt guns.

    Personally, if I go, I think I'm going to CC for several reasons. Again, I'm not telling anyone what to do, just throwing it out there. Just remember, be OVER THE TOP polite (even if someone is doing something that makes you want to take it out on a punching bag), ignore the ignorant, have a GREAT time, and most of all...BE SAFE!

    I'm not looking to bring a large group of people, just a few to enjoy the place with. Part of me is saying I want to have people there cause everyone I've met from here has been awesome, part of me is saying if I have any confrontation, whether it be by civilian or police, being alone is always much worse than being in a group.
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    Based on how they have been spouting off trying to get as many people as possible to lobby congress to restrict our rights, I don't see why anyone around here would want to even patronize the event, much less give them money.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:27 PM.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider View Post
    Based on how they have been spouting off trying to get as many people as possible to lobby congress to restrict our rights, I don't see why anyone around here would want to even patronize the event, much less give them money.
    So we're going to fight for our right to be there, then once they agree, not even show up?

    *scratches head*
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:27 PM.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I would tend to agree. At no time that I know of has there been any comments to RO that we were going to be there. The point was made that we were only working towards getting an illegal restriction removed, "if" any of us decided to visit the festival. We (you all) have accomplished that. In my opinion: I would notify the "Wiz" and his supporters that we are going to "boycott" the festival. See if he minds losing any of "our" money! Probably not, he will claim victory that he "scared" us off.
    Either way it goes, we need to handle this very carefully. It's a double edged sword and we each have to decide which side to slide on.
    I would support our people which ever choice they make.

    JMO

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    i went to multiple RO council meetings to offer my support for the cause, and i am not planning to attend ABE.

    Carrying a gun on city streets at ABE is not important to me, having the right to carry a gun at ABE is very importing to me.

    We won the battle.

    I do think it is a good idea to have a few oc'ers show up to the event so we can prove that oc is really not too terribly exciting.

    Be ultra vigilant. There are too many anti-s out there who would love to prove a point. I would also suggest not oc'ing alone.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post

    Be ultra vigilant. There are too many anti-s out there who would love to prove a point. I would also suggest not oc'ing alone.

    agreed.

    I'd like to at least check the place out and see what's so cool about it. I've heard a lot of good things in the past but never got the chance to actually go there. I hate to say it but after all this stuff, I'm a bit afraid to OC there by myself, which is why I was asking for company. Its a bit nerve racking, like my first time ever OCing all over again.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  12. #12
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    I cant come, and didnt fight for your rights, but yougot them!!

    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    If you think about it though, that part of "the fight" was already won. Firearms can legally be there and it is known by all.

    They (producers of AB&E, RO City Council, local residents, business owners) have stated they don't want guns there, and it wouldn't be any different than a business telling you can't carry in their store and they don't want your business if you're going to carry. They want you to leave your rights at home, or at least at the border of THEIR city.

    It's for this reason that I see GRer's point. Why do they deserve OUR hard earned money? I'm reconsidering even going at all now.

    Still, everyone is free to make whatever choice they want. That's one of the many great things about this country.

    It is WAY different!!! the whole point is that it is public property, your town!!!
    your 2 A rights remain intact.
    spend as little money as it takes to at least show up!
    be careful, go in pairs, keep those recorders going, dont be baited by banana guy!!
    You guys fought hard to secure your rights, they are not just for you,
    they belong to all, you need to make some kind of showing, to collect OUR trophy!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    For OC'ers, at least even just a few, to not show up now would be giving the impression that we are not serious... and therefor not a force to be reconned with... will hurt future efforts in other battles.

    It will also give anti's more fodder for ridicule.

    So much effort spent to win the fight and not enjoy the fruits (banana pun intended) of that labor .. and send the message that OC is legal and a normal thing to do... would end up being viewed as capitulating to the anti's... and would turn a victory into a huge loss. Think of what the media would do with that!!!!

    Remember... to the victor go the spoils.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    It is WAY different!!! the whole point is that it is public property, your town!!!
    your 2 A rights remain intact.
    spend as little money as it takes to at least show up!
    be careful, go in pairs, keep those recorders going, dont be baited by banana guy!!
    You guys fought hard to secure your rights, they are not just for you,
    they belong to all, you need to make some kind of showing, to collect OUR trophy!
    It's a hard decision. I don't disagree with the idea of not letting us be intimidated into not going. If OC'ers don't show up just because "We don't want to push too hard.", then getting the contract fixed is nothing more than a pyrrhic victory (may be one anyway). OTOH, just showing up gives support to someone/group of someone's who are actively working to restrict our freedoms in this state. Why help them with monetary support?

    Double edged indeed.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Perhaps there is another way to view any money spent by OC'ers at AB&E....

    To not show up after all that work would be an admission of capitulation to all that negative public opinion that has spewed forth effectively handing the victory over to the anti's.

    While it may appear to be giving money to those who oppose gun rights the truth (at least this is how I view it) really is the money spent by OC'ers at AB&E is an investment in protecting gun rights....

    OC'ing on the battlefield where the battle was fought and won sends the message that rights and laws trump personal and public opinion... and that alone is worth the extremely small amount of money given for the privilege to serve in defense of those rights.

    But we must be aware that although the battle with Royal Oak and AB&E has been won.... there is the possibility of more skirmishes with individual anti gunners acting on their own. Awareness, caution, the refusal to get into any kind of argument, taking the intellectual and moral high road during encounters, attending in small groups, and many audio/video recorders running at all times, are all absolutely necessary.

    And keeping in mind that every step at AB&E is walking through a mine field... and not get caught up in enjoying the festival to the point of forgetting to be super vigilant not to inadvertently stray into somewhere where carry is illegal. It would only take some shopkeeper to say they told an OC'er to leave or an individual to say they saw brandishing or whatever. Sometimes recorders are necessary to prove what someone lied and said happened....... didn't happen!!!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  16. #16
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I stood up to my own city government for the right to carry there, a right I most likely will not be able to exercise as I will be recovering from surgery. I understand the arguments for not going, but in the end the city commission did vote to uphold the law and Jon Witz did sign the amended agreement. I would equate this action to be similar to having an issue with a Local LEO Organization, and once resolved, not Open Carrying there again.

    I believe it to be a hollow victory for some of us to not be at ABE and carry, whatever method you choose to. This part of the fight is over and has been won, we need to put down the emotional responses from this fight and prepare for the upcoming challenges yet to come.

    I posted in another thread the idea of an Open Letter that I will be creating. This is the first scene in the next act of this "Play".

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I wish there was amongst us a disabled person that open carries in a wheelchair.............. let those "emotional" people at AB&E deal with THAT!

    Betcha that would get media coverage!

    Absolutely NOT advocating anyone play act with a wheelchair!!! Let us not fall into the trap of lowering ourselves to the cheating tactics anti's commonly use!!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  18. #18
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I wish there was amongst us a disabled person that open carries in a wheelchair.............. let those "emotional" people at AB&E deal with THAT!

    Betcha that would get media coverage!

    Absolutely NOT advocating anyone play act with a wheelchair!!! Let us not fall into the trap of lowering ourselves to the cheating tactics anti's commonly use!!
    If I go after surgery, that would be the only way I could.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-18-2010 at 11:27 PM.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    The effort with Royal Oak was simply to have them remove an illegal festival rule which affected all gun owners/carriers in the festival "zone". Mission accomplished.

    The mission had that as the objective, and it was accomplished. The mission did not have any additional objectives defined, achieved by OC'ers either showing up at or staying away from ABE en masse. OC'ers should do what they normally planned as their recreation or business during the days of ABE. If your plans included ABE, follow through. If your plans were elsewhere, follow through.

    To summarize: an illegal gun rule was successfully removed, now go about your business as you desire.
    Last edited by DanM; 08-19-2010 at 10:30 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    I realize that it is public property and they have NO right to tell persons carrying firearms not to come. What I was implying was the fact that by telling us we are not wanted there, and by the City Council creating a "resolution", why should WE support them by paying to get in, buying stuff, spending money in businesses that don't want us, paying for parking, filling up at their gas stations (in other words pumping more money into their city that they don't deserve.)

    I do think SOME people should go there, just not in very large groups (IMO.) I also don't think people should OC on their own. Go with at least 1+ OCer's for backup/witness purposes. DON'T FORGET YOUR RECORDER(S)!!!
    Because if OC'ers don't show up Royal Oak's 'resolution' and the council's disdain and condemnation of OC'ers, the negative media coverage, and the vitriol spewed by citizens................ wins. And OC turns a victory into a loss in the eyes and minds of every municipality, anti citizen, and even legislators. Yes, legislators are watching all this carefully.

    I understand the perspective of not wanting to support the anti's with OC'ers money..... but for OC'ers to not show up after winning such a long and contested battle sends the message that those who fought have no true conviction for their cause and therefor have no credibility... and there is really no reason to pay any attention to them since they are, in effect, a paper tiger.

    And municipalities, citizens with opinions, legislators (especially legislators!) do not concern themselves with paper tigers.

    Now is the time to follow through!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  22. #22
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    Yes, follow through. With recorders. The best situation available to us is to show up in large numbers, but not in large groups. This isn't over yet. The antis will vigorously peruse their agendas up to and including if possible, the outlawing of OC. It is vitally important that we be able to show through facts, that OC does not equal blood in the streets, or the loss of revenue. An increase in revenue because of this would only work to our favor.

    The antis are just as passionate, and vigilant as we are.

  23. #23
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Yes, follow through. With recorders. The best situation available to us is to show up in large numbers, but not in large groups. This isn't over yet. The antis will vigorously peruse their agendas up to and including if possible, the outlawing of OC. It is vitally important that we be able to show through facts, that OC does not equal blood in the streets, or the loss of revenue. An increase in revenue because of this would only work to our favor.

    The antis are just as passionate, and vigilant as we are.

    Just MO....I am following this from WA, but was born and raised in MI (if that actually matters)....but I just want to encourage you to attend this event you have fought so hard to be allowed.....sure, make it a non-event...but make it there....Big numbers, not big groups is the perfect way to approach this!

    I agree completely with these comments...the first step is to win the legal issue, and that you have done....at least as important is to demonstrate that OC'rs are pretty much regular folks....bring your wives, kids, family! The point in the public display, is to gain credibility and change the public perception. It will make the next legal battle easier....

    It's like getting the right to vote, and then not exercising the right to vote,

    Remember the motto here, ""A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost".....

    Take you recorders if you want, but take a few (hundred) brochere's to hand out too.
    Last edited by jt59; 08-19-2010 at 11:46 AM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Vance View Post
    it wouldn't be any different than a business telling you can't carry in their store and they don't want your business if you're going to carry.
    But would you shop in those stores if the law said they could not deny you service?

    That's a little like saying that blacks should have just ate at their own, segregated, lunch counters instead of working for the ability to eat in the whites only places where their money was not wanted.

    Just my opinion.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    If I recall correctly AB&E is a non-profit organization, so the proceeds will go to charities and not Witz's pocket. If we do not go the anti's and media will have a field day with it. They will say things like "See they don't care about anyone else but themselves and their rights" and "It was just a publicity stunt to prove a point" etc. We do not want this to happen because we all know that is not true. If you were planning on going before by all means pack up your family and go have a good time! Lets not make the charities suffer because of a few ignorant politicians! We can deal with them at another time.


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