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People are getting scared

Jack House

Jack House

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I80, USA
simmonsjoe said:
This has absolutely nothing to do with Duty to Retreat.

One of the reasons the VA Castle Doctrine failed to pass is that it's "Stand Your Ground" clause was weaker than current case law!

An Ohio poster mentioned how their SYG right extends to their cars. Whoopty doo. VA Case Law allows you to SYG virtually ANYWHERE YOUR PRESENCE IS LAWFUL. (as long as you did not start the conflict.)
Click to expand...
Ok, let me rephrase.

I disagree that "using lethal force to protect property is not acceptable." The idea of standing back and allowing a thief to take what they want of your property because they are not a direct threat to your life disgusts me. Like I said earlier, if Bob doesn't want to get shoot while trying to steal a car, he should steal a gun grabber's.

Then again, he'd probably get shot in a drive-by, you know how them gun grabbers are. :rolleyes:
 
Flintlock

Flintlock

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May 26, 2006
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Alaska, USA
simmonsjoe said:
I don't think we need castle doctrine in VA. Using lethal force to protect property is not acceptable to me, unless the taking of said property jeopardizes your life.

We have decent SD laws in VA.
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Really? Is there not a scenario where you would consider it justifiable, such as witnessing someone setting fire to your home, or smashing your living room window with a crowbar to gain access, etc? Not picking on you, just curious.

Do you own firearms for any other reason besides protecting life?
 
S

simmonsjoe

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Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Flintlock said:
Really? Is there not a scenario where you would consider it justifiable, such as witnessing someone setting fire to your home, or smashing your living room window with a crowbar to gain access, etc? Not picking on you, just curious.

Do you own firearms for any other reason besides protecting life?
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Sure. The right of revolution. Hunting. IDPA/USPSA. Militia.

You seem to be assuming that you have no other recourse than to let them get away.
In both your scenarios, if there is any possibility someone is inside, bang bang.(It is no longer a property issue)
If I'm positive the house is empty, and I'm outside the home
For the crowbar guy, call the cops. (clearing a house is dangerous, and they get paid to do it)
For the firebug, affect an arrest. (A VA resident may arrest anyone committing a felony). escalate force as necessary.
 
F

Flyer22

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Dreamer said:
Oh, no, you're atually a little off base on that...

The number of LEOs "on the beat" actually DO have a measurable correlation to violent crime. The more cops, the more crime...

There are nearly 5 times as many sworn LEOs in the USA today than there were in 1950. The population has doubled in that same time. The violent crime rate has nearly tripled. These are national averages...

Regionally, however, the majority of the nation has seen significant decreases in violent crime since 2007. In the regions with major decreases in violent crime, there have also been tremendous INCREASES in the issuance of CC permits.

However, cities and states that are not "shall issue" or otherwise restrict or prohibit carry have seen increases in violent crime that are practically a mirror image increase to the decreases in carry-friendly areas.

The increases in violent crime in "victim disarmament zones" has, in fact, more than offset the decreases in violent crime in carry-friendly jurisdictions. These "victim disarmament zones" have also had higher-than-average increases in LEO numbers.

You do the math...

More guns in the hands of LACs = less crime....

But more cops + fewer guns in the hands of LACs = WAY more crime...

And of course, in areas that have seen above-average in LE personnel, there has also been an above-average increase in police brutality, civil rights violation cases, and excessive force lawsuits. Unfortunately, these cases are usually not included in the Federal UCR as "violent crime" because most of these police-committed instances of violence do not result in criminal charges being files against the offending officers--most end in civil suits or are completely thrown out and the officers "get a pass". So actually, the violent crime statistics for carry-unfriendly jurisdictions are lower than the reality of the situation, because they don't count the thousands of annual incidents of bad shootings, beat-downs, excessive force, false arrest (kidnapping), and general abuse of power by LEOs...


Of course, we must remember that correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Statistics are like poodles. If you treat them nice enough, you can make them jump through flaming hoops... :)
Click to expand...

I haven't really looked at state-by-state comparisons. HOWEVER, crime as a whole, nationwide, has been dropping since 1992 or 1993. A check of the stats shows that crime rates now are the lowest they've been in roughly 35 years.
 
Las Vegan

Las Vegan

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Jun 29, 2010
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Las Vegas
simmonsjoe said:
Using lethal force to protect property is not acceptable to me...
Click to expand...

flb_78 said:
I don't think a thieve's life is worth my property.
Click to expand...

I'm a Buddhist and a vegetarian. Heck, if I find a spider in my bathroom I carry it out to the garden. But a human being who breaks into my home to steal anything of mine has forfeited his right to suck air.

A thief who breaks into another person's home has already made the decision about what his life is worth. I'm just agreeing with him.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
Flyer22 said:
I haven't really looked at state-by-state comparisons. HOWEVER, crime as a whole, nationwide, has been dropping since 1992 or 1993. A check of the stats shows that crime rates now are the lowest they've been in roughly 35 years.
Click to expand...

This actually has more to do with Roe vs. Wade then LEO involvement according to some studies. But I fear with all the incentives for some women (and men) to have "unwanted" children, crime is going to grow again.
 
frommycolddeadhands

frommycolddeadhands

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Knob Noster, MO
I don't think they're necessarily scared...

floyd patriot said:
I live in a sparsely populated rural/agricultural county in Va. I am an NRA certified firearms instructor and teach, among other things, Concealed Handgun Permit classes.

Recently, the county cut the Sheriff's budget. Again. The Sheriff is down to having only two deputies on the road at any given time and only one on graveyard shift. The department is assisted by VSP, but their budget is limited, so they can only assist so much. Besides, VSP is not allowed to assist county sheriffs offices with misdemeanor crimes.

I'm getting a lot more requests for information on my classes, especially from ladies. I truly believe people are getting scared because of the lack of law enforcement.

Most citizens do not know that Va. does not observe the Castle Doctrine. Most do not even know what the Castle Doctrine is. When they find out they do not have the legal right to defend their property against thieves, they become very concerned. Request for information on In Home Self Defense classes and Va. Firearms Law classes have risen also. Some people are even asking where they can learn what to do and how to prepare to survive in the event the country goes to "SHTF" syndrome.

People are getting scared.
Click to expand...

I think we should give people more credit than that. Just because someone buys a firearm or seeks training on how to properly use it doesn't mean that they are scared of anything. That's just the sort of logic the anti's use. "Clinging to guns and religeon" comes to mind. I'm not saying anything derogatory toward you, just that the statement seems to be failed logic.

It could just be that more folks are realizing the drop in law enforcement numbers and are taking proper precautions. Or perhaps many people are just finally taking the time to get the training that they've wanted for some time. Plus the economy is up $%^ creek right now, which has a lot of people speculating about a rise in criminal activity. People are finally staring to pay attention, and now that they are they're getting prepared to take care of themselves, knowing that nobody else will.
 
Deanimator

Deanimator

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Rocky River, OH, U.S.A.
Dreamer said:
Oh, no, you're atually a little off base on that...
Click to expand...
Actually, I'm completely on base.

A certain level of police presence in a given geographic location may lower RATES of crime, but the odds of YOU actually being "protected" when YOUR life is in danger RIGHT NOW, are about as high as those of your being rescued by bigfoot swooping in on a flying saucer.

If the police are able to protect YOU as an individual in a deadly force attack, you weren't in that much danger to begin with. If your attacker allows you the luxury of dialing 911, nevermind waiting around for the cops to show up before killing or maiming you, he's not terribly effective as an assailant.

If you expect the police to actually PROTECT you, unless you've got your own protective detail, you might as well eat your own gun. It just isn't going to happen.
 
Jack House

Jack House

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I agree with Deanimator, you need some police to help keep crime rates low. If there is little to no police available, criminals will see it as an opportunity to get away with more. Of course the police are not the be all end all to crime prevention, and if the police force is corrupt and the citizens unable to protect themselves, it'll have the opposite effect.
 
Deanimator

Deanimator

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Jack House said:
I agree with Deanimator, you need some police to help keep crime rates low. If there is little to no police available, criminals will see it as an opportunity to get away with more. Of course the police are not the be all end all to crime prevention, and if the police force is corrupt and the citizens unable to protect themselves, it'll have the opposite effect.
Click to expand...
I see you've heard of Chicago!

Chicago is the perfect storm of bad policing and a helpless, disarmed populace:

  • The police are severely understaffed.
  • The police are badly led.
  • Police and city officials issue false and misleading "statistics". For example five people shot on a street corner is classified officially as ONE shooting. Likewise, the Superintendent (against whom there is a slow motion mutiny by the rank and file, outraged at the idea of being punished for violent crimes against citizens) now differentiates between "outside" and "inside" murders, claiming that NOTHING can be done about the former.
  • The police are poorly disciplined.
  • The police are often corrupt, sharing information with criminal gangs.
  • The police themselves sometimes operate criminal enterprises, such as home invasion rings.
  • Until recently, citizens weren't even allowed to effectively defend themselves in their homes.
  • Citizens still can't effectively defend themselves on the streets.
Hence, criminal gangs are daily making bolder and bolder incursions into formerly "safe" areas like the Loop, North Michigan Ave. shopping areas and the beaches.

In Chicago, the motto isn't "To Protect and Serve". It's "We don't have to (and can't) protect you, and we won't let you protect yourself if we can at all help it."
 
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