Carrying and Alcohol

Matt85 said:

i dont expect any one to agree with every thing i do. but i dont like how many people in the OCDO seem to think alchohol is "evil" and if you drink it then you will automatically do bad/stupid things. seems like no one here has ever heard of moderation or self control.

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It is the internet, if we all agreed there would be nothing to discuss. No one has said alcohol is evil, just not a good mix with firearms. In my particular case, I look at the benefits or detractors of alcohol consumption when it comes to firearms and drinking (or any mind altering substance for that matter) I see no benefit.

It is easily demonstrated that when measured in the whole, the contributions of alcohol to society are vastly out weighted by the detrimental effects; I can not see a gun changing that equation to a positive. You are big boy and entitled to make your own decisions.

We will not ever agree on this particular subject.



Steve

eye95 said:

Whether or not one has a valid claim for self-defense is going to revolve around intent. If someone's judgment is impaired, their intent is also in question. In a close call, being under the influence will work against one's defense of self-defense and could result in tipping the scales for conviction.

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No, the issue in a self-defense claim is not your intent -- in a self-defense claim you concede that you intended to use lethal force. Whether you have a valid claim for self-defense is determined by whether a reasonable person in your situation would have believed that you faced an imminent threat of physical harm or death, *justifying* the use of lethal force.

The entire claim of self-defense never relates to the extent of your sobriety.

Where it figures is like this: If you're drunk, you'll have poor judgment, and you might *unreasonably* judge that you have a need to defend yourself with lethal force. You might also mistakenly judge that you *don't* need to defend yourself or your family, and you all wind up dead. Another possibility is that your physical coordination will be affected and you miss the BG and possibly shoot a passerby.

There are all kinds of reasons not to be drunk and wield lethal force. My thing is that it's ridiculous to ban the consumption of any alcohol at all by someone with a carry permit. You're in effect depriving him of his best means of self-defense. It's an awful price to pay for a beer.

LeagueOf1291 said:

No, the issue in a self-defense claim is not your intent -- in a self-defense claim you concede that you intended to use lethal force. Whether you have a valid claim for self-defense is determined by whether a reasonable person in your situation would have believed that you faced an imminent threat of physical harm or death, *justifying* the use of lethal force.

The entire claim of self-defense never relates to the extent of your sobriety.

Where it figures is like this: If you're drunk, you'll have poor judgment, and you might *unreasonably* judge that you have a need to defend yourself with lethal force. You might also mistakenly judge that you *don't* need to defend yourself or your family, and you all wind up dead. Another possibility is that your physical coordination will be affected and you miss the BG and possibly shoot a passerby.

There are all kinds of reasons not to be drunk and wield lethal force. My thing is that it's ridiculous to ban the consumption of any alcohol at all by someone with a carry permit. You're in effect depriving him of his best means of self-defense. It's an awful price to pay for a beer.

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Well then, I guess a person will have to decide which is more important to them: drinking a beer or being able to defend oneself and/or others.

Of course it involves intent. If you intend to kill someone regardless of whether you are defending yourself, and you set up a situation that looks like self-defense, you are guilty of murder. That intent can develop within a split-second before the shooting.

"Here's a bad guy. Let me encourage him to put me in danger so I can eliminate another BG from the face of the Earth." If you then act in such a way as to encourage him to put you in danger, killing him would be murder.

If the prosecutor has presented evidence (say posts made on a message board) that indicate a predisposition to set up a "self-defense" shooting, he will surely use any drinking you have done, hoping to get the jury to conclude that your thinking was clouded by the drinks you had, facilitating your taking action on your message board fantasy.

That's just one scenario--and, it's a bit convoluted. However, it does illustrate how drinking could be a factor in a jury's decision as to whether a shooting was self-defense.

You might say that you would never put yourself in that situation, however, under the cloud of alcohol, who's to say what other situation are you likely to put yourself in that would raise the question of, "Did he intend to defend himself, or did he intend to commit murder under the color of self-defense?" in the mind of the jury.

Yet our country was founded in bars and taverns. I wonder how they would weigh in on this discussin.

They would probably say something along the lines of "Drink and carry if you want to. Be ready to pay the price for your actions if you screw up."

Ruby said:

Speaking only for myself, if, if something negative should happen while you are drinking and carrying, you will find little sympathy here.

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im sorry to hear that.

if you ever have to defend yourself, i will support you regardless of whether you had a couple drinks in advance.

If for whatever reason I decided to have a drink and remembered that I was armed, I wouldn't let that stop me. It's only illegal to be intoxicated here and the very few times that I drink, I only have one.

I am fine with Texas law regarding alcohol and arms, only thing I am not fine with is the 51% rule. It's completely freaking stupid. You're allowed to drink, just not allowed to enter bars, whether you intend to drink or not. :banghead:

Why would I go to a bar if I don't intend to drink? Billiards. Bars are the only places in my town where you can play pool if you don't have a table yourself. And I LOVE playing pool, don't have a car and no room for a table. So my only choice is the local bars. Something I don't really mind, seeing as I have been playing pool in bars since I was 4.

rodbender said:

They would probably say something along the lines of "Drink and carry if you want to. Be ready to pay the price for your actions if you screw up."

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That's precisely what I'm talking about. You should have the right to defend yourself, even if you're affected by alcohol (or benadryl, or lack of sleep, or stress on the job, or famine, or flu, or depression, or brain damage). If you're blind drunk but rightfully shot someone about to rape your wife and kill your children, I wouldn't penalize you simply because you were drunk and shot the BG. I'd probably warn you that you had the grace of God on your side, and next time you might not.

Matt85 said:

im sorry to hear that.

if you ever have to defend yourself, i will support you regardless of whether you had a couple drinks in advance.

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Matt, this is a non issue for me as I don't drink. I think you fully intended to continue to drink as you want, which is your right, and posted on here to get some support for your position. As you can see, there is very little of of it. I and others have already stated how we feel and why. It's your life, your decision, and you will have to live with the consequences, whatever they may be. If you haven't already noticed, the people on this board will be honest(for the most part) and tell you what they think or how they feel, not necessarily what you want to hear. That is for your benefit, believe it or not. Actually it benefits all of us when one of us has done something stupid and is called out about it. I TRUST that kind of honesty; I know I won't be lied to. The opposite is also true, when you do well, you will be praised for it. Matt, there isn't much more serious in life than guns. You, we, have the power of life and death in our hands; we need to be responsible with that power at all times. If you want to go out and drink, leave the gun at home, you can't take it into a bar anyway. That's about all I have to say. As my grandmother once stated, " You can't put an old head on young shoulders."

LeagueOf1291 said:

That's precisely what I'm talking about. You should have the right to defend yourself, even if you're affected by alcohol (or benadryl, or lack of sleep, or stress on the job, or famine, or flu, or depression, or brain damage). If you're blind drunk but rightfully shot someone about to rape your wife and kill your children, I wouldn't penalize you simply because you were drunk and shot the BG. I'd probably warn you that you had the grace of God on your side, and next time you might not.

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I don't think anyone on here said that you didn't have the right to defend yourself if you had been drinking. You are taking this out of context. What a lot of people said, myself included, is that it generally isn't a good idea to drink and carry, for reasons previously stated.

Ruby said:

Matt, this is a non issue for me as I don't drink. I think you fully intended to continue to drink as you want, which is your right, and posted on here to get some support for your position. As you can see, there is very little of of it. I and others have already stated how we feel and why. It's your life, your decision, and you will have to live with the consequences, whatever they may be. If you haven't already noticed, the people on this board will be honest(for the most part) and tell you what they think or how they feel, not necessarily what you want to hear. That is for your benefit, believe it or not. Actually it benefits all of us when one of us has done something stupid and is called out about it. I TRUST that kind of honesty; I know I won't be lied to. The opposite is also true, when you do well, you will be praised for it. Matt, there isn't much more serious in life than guns. You, we, have the power of life and death in our hands; we need to be responsible with that power at all times. If you want to go out and drink, leave the gun at home, you can't take it into a bar anyway. That's about all I have to say. As my grandmother once stated, " You can't put an old head on young shoulders."

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you seem to have me confused, im not looking to get support for my position. im looking to provide support for others who remain silent. too many people like yerself seem to onley think in black and white or right and wrong. i like to look at things from a grey perspective. although to be honest you really dont have the right to argue one side or the other since you do not drink at all.

example:
is drinking and carrying a gun bad?
1. yes
2. no
3. depends

i would choose answer 3, while you would clearly choose answer 1 regardless of the situation.

Ruby said:

I don't think anyone on here said that you didn't have the right to defend yourself if you had been drinking. You are taking this out of context. What a lot of people said, myself included, is that it generally isn't a good idea to drink and carry, for reasons previously stated.

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And I agree with that. But my context is, I live in Tennessee where the law forbids anyone to carry while consuming any alcohol at all, and my point is, I wouldn't disable a man from defending himself just because he sipped a couple ounces of bubbly at a wedding party.

LeagueOf1291 said:

And I agree with that. But my context is, I live in Tennessee where the law forbids anyone to carry while consuming any alcohol at all, and my point is, I wouldn't disable a man from defending himself just because he sipped a couple ounces of bubbly at a wedding party.

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Neither would I and I already said so.

Matt85 said:

you seem to have me confused, im not looking to get support for my position. im looking to provide support for others who remain silent. too many people like yerself seem to onley think in black and white or right and wrong. i like to look at things from a grey perspective. although to be honest you really dont have the right to argue one side or the other since you do not drink at all.

example:
is drinking and carrying a gun bad?
1. yes
2. no
3. depends

i would choose answer 3, while you would clearly choose answer 1 regardless of the situation.

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I'm sorry, Matt, I do not have you confused with anyone else on this thread. You are bound and determined to stick to your POV and I to mine and that's fine. We each have our own opinion and expressing them and discussing them is what this forum is all about. Please do not tell me what I have a right to discuss and what I do not have a right to discuss on this forum. The problem is you don't like my point of view; I still have a right to express it whether you like it or not. I am a member here and I have a right to discuss whatever I please. If you don't like my POV, which seems obvious at this point, you do not have to read my posts and respond. Just because I do not drink doesn't mean I can't express my opinion on the subject. You WERE looking for support when you became upset at the posts regarding OC advocate, and wondered, in your post on that thread if you would be treated the same way. Clearly you were looking for support as you are on this thread, for your postition on drinking while carrying. We have been over this for the past 2 days. I have already stated that you are entitled to your point of view, I and others just don't agree with you, which is our right. Still you persist in putting your point of view forward again. I have already told you how I feel, you seem to want me to change my mind, which is not even in the realm of possibility. Do as you please, I already said to. I am not upset with you over your POV because what ever you decide to do, you will have to live with the results, not me. I am upset with you when you tell me in your latest post that because I don't drink I don't have the right to express an opinion. Bah! I'm done with you.

hmm rereading my post i realize i came off a bit harsh. i apologize, i was on break in school and didnt have time to give my post a proper read over before i posted.

again im sorry for coming across as a jerk.

i too will cease to post in this thread since i dont wish to make enemies outa every one.

There are things I could do that would be more stupid than be under the influence of alcohol and in possession of a weapon.

It would be a very short list.

Matt85 said:

hmm rereading my post i realize i came off a bit harsh. i apologize, i was on break in school and didnt have time to give my post a proper read over before i posted.

again im sorry for coming across as a jerk.

i too will cease to post in this thread since i dont wish to make enemies outa every one.

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Apolgy accepted. No hard feelings.

True that Sudden Valley Gunner!

As for carrying and alcohol I can carry four 30 packs maybe more down to the beach for a party!

Ruby said:

Neither would I and I already said so.

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I know, I was just pointing out the fact that while we agree on this point, the law in Tennessee doesn't.