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Thread: Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq

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    Regular Member kb4cvn's Avatar
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    Post Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq

    Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq


    US Forces Weapons:

    • The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down.

    Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere, you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower.
    The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and weapons lights on the Picatinny Rail, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment.
    They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinder block structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.

    • The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): Big thumbs down

    .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. . Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

    • The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag.

    Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge.
    The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common.

    Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.


    • Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:

    Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

    • The M240 Machine Gun: Thumbs up.

    7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!)
    Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.
    Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry.
    The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

    • The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up.

    "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts them face-down in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

    • The .45 pistol: Thumbs up.

    Still the best pistol around out there.
    Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
    With few exceptions, one can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit.
    The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it.
    The old government Model 1911 .45 pistols are being re-issued enmasse.

    • The M-14: Thumbs up.

    They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys.
    Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights.
    Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

    • The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up.

    Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train.
    Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
    It is definitely here to stay.

    • The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up.

    Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag.
    Heavily modified Remington 700's.
    Great performance.
    Snipers have been used heavily to great effect.
    Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

    • Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up.

    Spectacular performance.
    Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

    • Lights: Thumbs up.

    Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations.
    Most carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.



    I can't help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!

    Last edited by kb4cvn; 08-20-2010 at 02:47 PM. Reason: NOTICED TYPOS

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    That's as old and as fake as Pam Anderson's breasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kb4cvn View Post
    Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq


    US Forces Weapons:

    • The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down.

    Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere, you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower.
    The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and weapons lights on the Picatinny Rail, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment.
    They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinder block structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.

    • The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): Big thumbs down

    .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. . Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

    • The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag.

    Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge.
    The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common.

    Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.


    • Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:

    Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

    • The M240 Machine Gun: Thumbs up.

    7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!)
    Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.
    Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry.
    The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

    • The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up.

    "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts them face-down in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

    • The .45 pistol: Thumbs up.

    Still the best pistol around out there.
    Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
    With few exceptions, one can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit.
    The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it.
    The old government Model 1911 .45 pistols are being re-issued enmasse.

    • The M-14: Thumbs up.

    They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys.
    Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights.
    Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

    • The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up.

    Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train.
    Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
    It is definitely here to stay.

    • The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up.

    Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag.
    Heavily modified Remington 700's.
    Great performance.
    Snipers have been used heavily to great effect.
    Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

    • Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up.

    Spectacular performance.
    Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

    • Lights: Thumbs up.

    Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations.
    Most carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.



    I can't help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!

    While I do tend to agree with your report card, one of the reasons the 9mm is disliked is because the ammo that the military allows, is not hollow point ammo....it is ball ammo that just pokes holes into the targets with no expantion. the Military has to get with the program and issue Hollow point rounds.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    How is it fake? It strikes me as opinion. Opinion cannot be real or fake. You can only agree or disagree.

    The only way this could be "fake" would be if some of the facts portrayed in the opinions were not true or if some of the weapons were not used in Iraq.

    Can you elaborate?

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    1st Wave OIF I combatant here.

    M16 thumbs down is, in my experience, wrong. Every fellow soldier I talked to from Iraq to Afghanistan was ok with it. Those whose systems jammed wouldnt ever clean their weapons.

    M2 thumbs up. lol, without a doubt. Ma' Deuce is inded hard to beat.

    MK19 Mod 3: Incredible. Thumbs way up.

    M249 SAW: Jams? LOL! It's an open bolt face firing mechanise with two locking lugs. I have actually witnessed a squad member open his feed tray, grab a handful of sand and fling it into the chamber, shake the weapon, and fire. Jams? Doubt it.

    M240B: Not denying the awesomesauce here. LMG's should probably have a bit more knockdown than the 5.56


    Just my opinions/experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    That's as old and as fake as Pam Anderson's breasts.
    While I agree with you 100% on Miss Anderson (and others in her industry) having their self-esteem ‘greatly enhanced’ though aftermarket methods, the information I presented here is verbatim as it was giving to me by a coworker who recently returned after their 3rd tour of the Iraqi theater of operations, as a member of the Army Reserves.

    The only tweaking I did was due to the length, to scan his printed document into PDF format, then used Acrobat’s OCR Text Recognition tool to capture the text and do a copy/paste into the forum’s posting window.

    What I did not post was the names on the distribution list at the top of the first page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kb4cvn View Post
    What I did not post was the names on the distribution list at the top of the first page.
    They would have meant as little as your large colored font does. Bald opinions are cheaper here than a dime dozen. Opinions are worth very little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kb4cvn View Post
    While I agree with you 100% on Miss Anderson...
    It is my experience that reserve units are less disciplined. Nothing against them, they are great foir the rotation.

    They just don't have the combat drill the AD units do.

    Again, my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    kb-

    Welcome to the site. Please do not let the experience in this thread taint your view of OCDO. Most of the posts on this site are opinion. Even expressions against opinion are opinion.

    I found your post interesting and informative. Not having been to Iraq, and having fired very few of the weapons mentioned, I cannot return an informed opinion, but I look forward to hearing what others who were there have to say about the analysis that you posted.

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    I spent september 07 until november 08 in Iraq. I carred the M249 SAW, The M4 and the M9 (not all at once obviously but im sure someone would have said something) and they were all excellent weapons. I'm not really sure where this report card is coming from. My SAW Never failed me and the M9 was pretty much mediocre. The M2, on the other hand, we could not get to fire reliably when the dust started kicking up. The M240B however was a freakin work horse. That thing would not stop chuggin along. Most of the guys that say the M16 or M4 jam a lot don't properly maintain their weapons or they've never actually carried them in a combat environment. Just my .02
    HOOAH?

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    1st Wave OIF I combatant here.

    M16 thumbs down is, in my experience, wrong. Every fellow soldier I talked to from Iraq to Afghanistan was ok with it. Those whose systems jammed wouldnt ever clean their weapons.

    M2 thumbs up. lol, without a doubt. Ma' Deuce is inded hard to beat.

    MK19 Mod 3: Incredible. Thumbs way up.

    M249 SAW: Jams? LOL! It's an open bolt face firing mechanise with two locking lugs. I have actually witnessed a squad member open his feed tray, grab a handful of sand and fling it into the chamber, shake the weapon, and fire. Jams? Doubt it.

    M240B: Not denying the awesomesauce here. LMG's should probably have a bit more knockdown than the 5.56


    Just my opinions/experiences.
    The only reason people may have not liked the SAW, was that it was cumbersome. No one wants to carry a heavy, bulky POS around. New collapsable stocks, and short barrels, plus the MWO's that allow for optics and add'l sighing equipment make it much more ideal for CQB, and a lot less bulky.

    The M16A2 is going the way of the M1 Garand, and will be phased out eventually. There is nothing wrong with the weapon however. Like you said, just clean the thing and it will go bang every time. I would rather have the 5 1/2 inches of extra barrel over the M4 due to ballistics in an open field gunfight. So giving everyone an M4 is a mistake. The only people who need them are infantry while they're kicking down doors and jumping out of MRAPS.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 25sierraman View Post
    I spent september 07 until november 08 in Iraq. I carred the M249 SAW, The M4 and the M9 (not all at once obviously but im sure someone would have said something) and they were all excellent weapons. I'm not really sure where this report card is coming from. My SAW Never failed me and the M9 was pretty much mediocre. The M2, on the other hand, we could not get to fire reliably when the dust started kicking up. The M240B however was a freakin work horse. That thing would not stop chuggin along. Most of the guys that say the M16 or M4 jam a lot don't properly maintain their weapons or they've never actually carried them in a combat environment. Just my .02
    From my experience, a lot of people still do not seem to know how to time the M2. I've never seen the dust as a serious issue. We always flooded it with CLP. It would get muddy inside of it around the ejection port, and still run like a raped ape.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    It is my experience that reserve units are less disciplined. Nothing against them, they are great foir the rotation.

    They just don't have the combat drill the AD units do.

    Again, my opinion.
    Having spend my whole career in the Guard, I will agree that there is less discipline, or was before the deployments started. However as the wars dragged on, after multiple deployments a lot of senior AD NCO's retired. With them left a LOT of institutional knowledge. I've seen some active units so ate the %*^ up, and full of thugs since the army was taking in anyone who applied, that the guard looks better than it ever has IMO.

    A lot of the senior NCO's that got out went into the guard as well, and after so many rotations there was a lot more emphasis on guard units practicing combat drills, maintaing discipline and physical readiness. In the past 7 years I've seen a lot of positive changes, and I'm proud to be a member. I can't speak for every state, but the TXANG leads the way.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    The only reason people may have not liked the SAW, was that it was cumbersome. No one wants to carry a heavy, bulky POS around. New collapsable stocks, and short barrels, plus the MWO's that allow for optics and add'l sighing equipment make it much more ideal for CQB, and a lot less bulky.

    The M16A2 is going the way of the M1 Garand, and will be phased out eventually. There is nothing wrong with the weapon however. Like you said, just clean the thing and it will go bang every time. I would rather have the 5 1/2 inches of extra barrel over the M4 due to ballistics in an open field gunfight. So giving everyone an M4 is a mistake. The only people who need them are infantry while they're kicking down doors and jumping out of MRAPS.
    I agree totally with your statements.

    I was one of the few lucky in the unit to be blessed with a A2.

    During the invasion a lot of soldiers wanted the big guns. One of my buddies, who holds the concurrent record for M249 Qualifications , swore by the weapon. My TC carried one, and refused to let it go for a M16. My Pat Crew buddy I had was the one who threw sand in the chamber to give me some serious insight into the 249's reliability.

    It went bang every damn time. Not only that, but the 249 is capable of amazing groups under controlled fire.

    It seems to me that people want to be spoiled. Sometimes higher command elements want to find way to procure funds to squander through creative channeling, so they create an issue that really doesn't exist.

    Marines in Afghanistan have been going BACK to the A2 (Ok or A4) along with the M14, because the M4 has much poorer ballistics. I don't buy the FM-32 ballistics charts for a minute.

    Don't get me wrong, you can reach out and touch somebody with an M4, but it's lacking compared to the A2 or A4 variations.

    I think a spin off of the AR platform with a thoroughly tested short stroke piston configuration utilizing the 6.5, 6.7, or 6.8 would be optimal.

    I agree with the dirtbag comment too.

    I could watch people in the unit, or other units, and tell immediately how much importance they gave their firearm. I love being told by some E2 that he "cleans his weapon all the time, sometimes three times a day" when I see him sleeping all the damn time, or dropping his weapon in the sand, practically using the mag well as a scoop, or DRAGGING IT in the sand to pick it up from the sling.

    My leatherman was the rescuer of a few stuck bolts. All said stuck bolts were by people who thought their firearm was an afterthought.

    Good reply man.

    It's crazy that my exact sentiments are being echo'd by other veterans. Amirite?

    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    From my experience, a lot of people still do not seem to know how to time the M2. I've never seen the dust as a serious issue. We always flooded it with CLP. It would get muddy inside of it around the ejection port, and still run like a raped ape.
    Headspace and timing. That's all that is needed to make ma deuce sing. You do this right, she'll keep ya happy in the crappiest environments.
    Last edited by slowfiveoh; 08-22-2010 at 12:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrayingForWar View Post
    From my experience, a lot of people still do not seem to know how to time the M2. I've never seen the dust as a serious issue. We always flooded it with CLP. It would get muddy inside of it around the ejection port, and still run like a raped ape.
    Thats what i said originally until i did the timing and headspace myself. Then we had an armorer do it and we still had the same issue. At first we thought maybe the headspace was jumping around because the barrel was so badly worn so we replaced it and still had the same issue. I'm still not sure what the issue was to this day but we jsut ended up replacing that Towers crew served weapon with another M240B.
    HOOAH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    How is it fake?
    Numerous errors. It's just some regurgitated spew of an armchair warrior who has a thing against mouseguns.

    Quote Originally Posted by kb4cvn View Post
    verbatim as it was giving to me by a coworker who recently returned after their 3rd tour of the Iraqi theater of operations, as a member of the Army Reserves.
    So, did he claim to author it? If you Google it you will find thousands of hits representing it as from a Marine. Some as from a SEAL or a SPETNAZ, or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Numerous errors. It's just some regurgitated spew of an armchair warrior who has a thing against mouseguns.
    What errors? You are making some serious charges about someone posting something disingenuously. The author is expressing his opinion. Opinions cannot be in error. Facts can be. What facts are in error?

    Please back up your contentions. You may be right. I don't know. You haven't provided any support for your charges.

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    Regular Member kb4cvn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    Numerous errors. It's just some regurgitated spew of an armchair warrior who has a thing against mouseguns.


    So, did he claim to author it? If you Google it you will find thousands of hits representing it as from a Marine. Some as from a SEAL or a SPETNAZ, or whatever.
    Hi Yardsale,
    I took your que and Googled the title, and saw the ump-teen pages of hits. You were right. (Should have done this BEFORE I posted the data. )

    I will ask my coworker tomorrow where she got it from.


    BTW:
    As far as my background, Regular Army, got out in '78. Own (and enjoy) my AR's in 5.56mm. (The wife prefers her Mini-14.) Never owned a 9mm pistol, but I OC a M1911 in .45 ACP. I trained with one, I lived with one by my side. And it feels "comfortable", like a favored old tool. Fits the hand better and I shoot instinctivly with it, as I was trained so long ago. If that makes me stogy for being old fashioned...so be it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    You are making some serious charges about someone posting something disingenuously.
    No I'm not, I'm calling BS on a hoax. If this were an article with a signed author I might take it apart point by point. But it's just an anonymous forwarded e-mail chain letter and not worth my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    No I'm not, I'm calling BS on a hoax. If this were an article with a signed author I might take it apart point by point. But it's just an anonymous forwarded e-mail chain letter and not worth my time.
    No. You said the information in the article was FALSE. You have also failed to identify a single FALSE FACT. You may DISAGREE with the OPINIONS expressed, but that does not make them FALSE FACTS.

    I again issue the challenge that you have failed to meet: What about the article is FALSE?

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