Stop and Identify

deleted by Citizen to avoid confusion

Wisconsin Carry said:

I've got 10,000 and an acknowledgement from the Racine city counsel that says refusal to give your name is NOT grounds for obstruction...

Don't lie... Don't give a false name... SILENCE is never a crime (yet) in Wisconsin


http://www.youtube.com/wisconsincarry#p/a/u/1/PuiO8tixuKY

Click to expand...

So even if the officer makes up some BS to come up with "RAS", and you remain silent, can you still be dragged in as "John Doe" and held for a period of time? And gun confiscated? That's the hassle I'd like to avoid, if possible.

Wisconsin Carry said:

This battle has already been won.

YOU CAN'T BE CHARGED WITH OBSTRUCTION FOR REFUSING TO GIVE YOU NAME/ADDRESS.

REMAINING SILENT IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR OBSTRUCTION.

Case law proves it so...

“Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey, 194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995)”

Click to expand...

Nik,
Did 968.24 exist at the time of Henes v. Morrissey? Or did 968.24 come later? I was reading this:

http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/documents/Summer2004.pdf

But again, I don't know when 968.24 came about, and if that "fixed" the loophole thing.


ETA:
Nevermind, I read that pdf a bit more closely. While 968.24 is on the books, that WI Supreme court case you cited negated it.

"What impact, if any, does the Hiibel decision have on police
officers in Wisconsin? Barring any legislative action, the
answer is none. While there seems to be a parallel between
the Nevada statutes at issue in Hiibel and Wisconsin’s
similar statutes (946.41 and 968.24), a Wisconsin Supreme
Court decision interpreting these statutes forecloses this
result."

And further....

"However, Wisconsin law
currently does not allow officers to arrest citizens simply for
failing to identify themselves. If the legislature amends the
obstructing statute to expressly criminalize this conduct, the
Hiibel decision makes it clear that the statute will be
constitutional. Absent some legislative action, however,
officers are not able to make arrest simply based on a
suspect’s failure to identify themselves."

968.24 was enacted a couple of years prior to the Henes opinion. The Madison PD legal update from 2004 regarding refusal to provide identification continues to be accurate. If only the know-it-all Racine Police officer had been reading MPD's legal updates when talking to Frank.........

OK. I'm convinced. I'm going to go higher in the thread and delete my posts so as to not cause confusion for any new readers.

Thanks for the scholarship, fellas.

So even if the officer makes up some BS to come up with "RAS", and you remain silent, can you still be dragged in as "John Doe" and held for a period of time? And gun confiscated? That's the hassle I'd like to avoid, if possible.

Click to expand...

RAS does not equal PC.

You can't get dragged in on RAS. An officer has to have PC to arrest.

So what you are asking is (I guess) if an officer is willing to break the law and make up "RAS" is he willing to break the law more and arrest without PC.

If he is willing to do both of those, do you really think your giving him your name would have avoided the whole encounter?

Its your own discretion.

Me personally. I believe most police officers are NOT accustom to dealing with people who know their rights. When you DO know your rights, and you demonstrate "politely" to an officer that you DO, that causes them to become VERY cognizant of their actions.

Its never happened to me, but if it does, I'll let the LEO know as i'm heading to the squad in handcuffs that they have no qualified immunity for an illegal arrest.

What I don't understand is why folks think that giving an leo your name and address verbally is any better than just giving them your ID. They end up with the same information. The last thing I want is the police getting worked up when they pull me over for speeding because my name says "carries a gun" next to it. Giving them your info gives them a chance to document and subsequent leo's the opportunity to harass. In a way I'm saving them from themselves by not giving them my information in the first place.

Canard said:

What I don't understand is why folks think that giving an leo your name and address verbally is any better than just giving them your ID. They end up with the same information.

Click to expand...

We have only the rights that we protect. We have the Fourth Amendment Right to be secure from unwarranted seizures of our papers. You may not cherish it.

Canard said:

The last thing I want is the police getting worked up when they pull me over for speeding because my name says "carries a gun" next to it.

Click to expand...

Suggests facts not in evidence.

Canard said:

Giving them your info gives them a chance to document and subsequent leo's the opportunity to harass. In a way I'm saving them from themselves by not giving them my information in the first place.

Click to expand...

OK!

Canard said:

What I don't understand is why folks think that giving an leo your name and address verbally is any better than just giving them your ID.

Click to expand...

The big difference is that they physically have something you own. So.... If you SAY "I'm Paul L Fisher from Elkhorn" (obviously street address) then they can write it down and if you later decide to leave without their explicit permission but without resistance, they don't have anything. If you give them your license, they can make the stop last as long as they want because you can't just grab the DL out of their hand. I guess you could leave and get a duplicate license if you want.

ME laws are different than WI but there was a good thread in the ME forum where the guy had it on tape, stood his ground, refused identity, kept asking if he could leave and as soon as the LEO stopped answering walked away. If he had given his DL, the LEO would still have the license.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...t.-18AUG2010&p=1334830&viewfull=1#post1334830

Wisconsin Carry said:

I think what he is saying is that you can be invoke your rights and still be nice.

I'm very polite to police. (you never know what their dash cam catches)

I politely decline to give my name

I politely decline to answer questions

I politely ask if I'm free to leave

I politely repeat that process

Click to expand...

Exactly Nik.

In my experience cops use your attitude as a barometer as to whether to take things to the "next level" or not. They have pretty good people skills and can spot emotions such as guilt, anger and fear a mile away.

However you are approached, keep a cool head and don't escalate the situation with a confrontational attitude.

Wisconsin Carry said:

I think what he is saying is that you can be invoke your rights and still be nice.

I'm very polite to police. (you never know what their dash cam catches)

I politely decline to give my name

I politely decline to answer questions

I politely ask if I'm free to leave

I politely repeat that process

Click to expand...

How many times have you had to do the above? Like, instances.

The last time I recall a police officer asking my name was when the contract security people called them because I had handed them a loaded Glock magazine and knife as I entered the Dane County/Madison City-County Building before passing through the metal detector. I conducted my business and as I was leaving security told me to wait and the police were coming because they were required to notify the police "whenever a firearm came into the building." I took a seat for a few minutes and was beginning to get impatient and was about to demand my property back an Madison LEO strolled in through the door.

When the officer arrived he pulled out his notebook and said "I'm just going to pretend I'm investigating for the sake of those doofuses..." nodding towards the security people. He said "name..." I asked "real name?" He shrugged and said "I don't give a s***..." I told him my name, we had a friendly conversation for a couple of minutes , he handed me my magazine and knife and wished me a good day. Never asked for ID. He kind of did a once over at my knife and muttered "hmmmm" because I carried a fairly large Cold Steel tactical folder but evidently he decided it was not worth making an issue over. Friendly and professional, as have been all the Madison police with whom I have encountered thus far.

Besides Madison, I've had face-to-face interactions with police from the Capitol Police, Platteville, Prairie du Chien, and a county deputy in Winona County, MN-- all of whom either knew or had reason to suspect that I am armed or have guns in the car. All have been professional and friendly and not demanding.

I believe that over time police officers develop an instinct, not unlike a dog, to sense fear in a person. Since I know quite a few current and former LEOs personally and have interacted with many more, there is no sense of mystique surrounding them. I feel no more apprehension talking with the police than I do with the person who bags my groceries at the store. LEOs are really no different than other people, even if they maintain a certain exterior personality on the job. They have the same interests, emotions, sense of humor as anyone else you know. Some are better than others, just as some grocery baggers are better. But experienced officers (and most gain experience pretty quickly) do develop the habit of a quick psychological evaluation of the person they're dealing with. Being calm, relaxed and confident puts them at ease. I have been angry with the police once or twice in my life, and not really because anything THEY had done, and nothing ever came of it, but I'm sure it put them on edge more than otherwise would have happened.

So I recommend being calm and friendly in your interactions whether you intend to comply with their requests for ID or not. Just imagine you're talking with your grocery bagger. Both have jobs that I appreciate when they do them well.

As I have said here before, "I am stuned, stuned I tell you(!)", at the frequency of line-of-duty interactions suffered by our correspondents.

My last traffic citation, of three in my life, was in 1977. (While I owned, but was not driving, my '73 911.) I was accosted by a motorist when I was an armed bicyclist and he called the cops but I did not have to give my ID/CWP as required in particular circumstances.

Other than that, all my police interactions have been as friends and acquaintances.

Don't Forget Van Hollen's Memo On Open Carry

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/news/files/FinalOpenCarryMemo.pdf

This should explain it nicely!

Look at ¶9 for the discussion about demanding name and address. Pretty clear to me.

This should clarify the issue.

Scroll down to "Arrest For Refusal To Identity?"
http://www.wichiefs.org/Newsletters/July2004Newsletter.pdf

As I have said, I no longer carry my drivers license on my person, it is in the packet with registration and proof of insurance, thus avoiding the Chapter 343 entanglement whenever possible.

No ID On Me

Ditto what Doug wrote. I too do not carry any ID on me. D.L. stays in vehicle with insurance and registration. I carry cash and credit card while shopping as well as my video recorder.

Max said:

Scroll down to "Arrest For Refusal To Identity?"
http://www.wichiefs.org/Newsletters/July2004Newsletter.pdf

Click to expand...

Game, set, match.

Doug Huffman said:

As I have said, I no longer carry my drivers license on my person, it is in the packet with registration and proof of insurance, thus avoiding the Chapter 343 entanglement whenever possible.

Click to expand...

I used to do the same, And I was arrested in another state (FL) for not having my identification on my person. Happily Wisconsin does not have oppressive laws like that on the books as of yet.
I was driving, I got stopped, I was ordered to step out of the vehicle while the officer had his weapon drawn and aimed at me, I then got patted down, he demanded my DL and other papers, when I stated they were in the car, above my sun visor and I needed to reach in the vehicle to get them, he said go ahead, When I turned around he was standing in a different place and had his gun pointed at me just inches from my head while screaming to get on the ground.
I got arrested that night for not having my identification with me, even though it was in the car. By the time this doofus got done with me, he had written citations for me having no ID on me, Disorderly, Obstructing, Resisting arrest without violence, and threatening a public servant.

So, know the laws of the state you are in, so you do not get railroaded like I did.

This is my intended protocol for my next traffic stop. Instantly acknowledge the officer's request to stop with emergency flashers and interior lights, but slowly proceed to a safe location of my choosing and retrieving my documents pack. Stop, exit, secure and lock the vehicle and meet the officer at the front of my car.

Every time I read of some useful tool sucking up to the cops, I think again about a GoPro.com camera. I saw one at Costco for $100. I think they'll do four hours of HD video and audio on a 16 GB chip. The camera is a 2" cube.