Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: Weapon Discharge Question

  1. #1
    Regular Member Wolfebane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    113

    Question Weapon Discharge Question

    Greetings,

    I was watching a video clip today and it got me thinking about this question.

    Here's the hypothetical scenario:

    Having dinner in a restaurant and for whatever reason a fight breaks out between a group of people, one side starts to get overwhelmed (no weapons only fists) and it looks like they could be beaten to death.

    Everyone else is yelling for them to stop and for someone to call the police. But at the rate the fight is going it looks like there could be a murder before the police arrive.

    Now my question is this:

    Is it illegal to draw your weapon and point it at the ceiling (it's a one story building with no one above) and discharge it one time to get everyone to stop. Assuming the fighting stops, is what you have done illegal since you believed another citizen was in mortal danger?

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over run with mud(s)
    Posts
    791
    I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back throught the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

    Just my opinion though for what it is worth.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  3. #3
    Regular Member bennie1986's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    368
    That’s just negligent! Why wouldn’t you just eliminate the threat? That’s legal for sure…

    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

    9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    the problem;;;

    you dont know which one or which group is the instigator,
    you really cant shoot the "aggressor" cause you dont know who is who...
    a general warning shot, to make everybody stop,
    would be a reasonable step to take.
    but only if thing were really out of hand.
    maybe before a warning shot, a loud command for all to stop or ill shoot would be good!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Everett, ,
    Posts
    21
    I normally just creep the forums, do not have much to say. But this made me laugh. A warning shot? really? and where is that round going? maybe it hits a stud and travels the cieling and exits hitting someone.

    in the event on not know the agressor, it doesnt matter, taking a life no matter on either side.

    I agree with the negligent discharge rcw. I am sick and tired of this new "accidental" discharge I hear in the news and at work. There is no such thing.

    Knowing what your target is and what is beyond is a basic firearm safety rule.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Genken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Tacoma, WA
    Posts
    105
    I would have gotten up, walked over to the people causing a ruckus, and a loud, commanding voice, and my sidearm clearly visible to them, asked if there was a problem.

    If it was later on as your situation states, id move in closer, draw, point, and yell at the top of my lungs(still in a commanding voice) "The man with the gun is telling you retards to break it up!".

    Too many ways it could turn out after that. Needless to say, if one is about to be seriously injured or killed, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the one who is about to do the serious injuring or killing. I wouldn't go up and stick it to his head and shoot or anything, but just enough shots in the chest/abdomen region to disable them. If they die then they die. But its a possibility when your too stubborn to listen to a person with a gun in that situation.

    Only time I'd "shoot" into a ceiling is if I had blanks...and I won't.
    It ain't easy in the Tweezy.

    My favorite one to date: "Uh... You know the hammer's back on it, right?"

    Me: o.O "Uh...yeah."

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Federal Way, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,667
    I would call 911.
    I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

    After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.
    Live Free or Die!

  8. #8
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Roy, WA
    Posts
    1,329
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I would call 911.
    I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

    After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.
    So far this sounds like the best plan. Only resort to pulling your gun if the idiots come after you.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  9. #9
    Regular Member SargentMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Washington, United States
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    you dont know which one or which group is the instigator,
    you really cant shoot the "aggressor" cause you dont know who is who...
    a general warning shot, to make everybody stop,
    would be a reasonable step to take.
    but only if thing were really out of hand.
    maybe before a warning shot, a loud command for all to stop or ill shoot would be good!
    In this scenario, the fight has become one-sided. Say for the sake of argument that the guy on the ground was the instigator. As soon as the victim got the upper hand and did not retreat, he became the aggressor. You would be legally justified in shooting the aggressor, whether he instigated the fight or not.

    The fact that a jerk decides to bully the wrong person doesn't give that person the right to beat the bully to death.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769

    Shoot into the ceiling??????? Dumb, really Dumb

    At the very least you would probably be charged with reckless endangerment. As far as appropaching the fight and in your "commanding voice" ordering them to stop, you would be very much in danger of both jumping you. This is about the same as attempting an arrest in a violent domestic incident. When you try to arrest the husband, the wife jumps in to help......"HIM"
    IMHO, call 911 and be a witness as Gogodawgs has said. YMMV

  11. #11
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back throught the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

    Just my opinion though for what it is worth.
    Actually according to Mythbustes, a bullet fired straight up is merely falling when it comes down, and unlikely to cause significant injury
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over run with mud(s)
    Posts
    791
    Metal: That is why I said "probably strong enough to handle the bullet falling" However I am not 100% sure as I have forgotten how to figure out the dynamically linked coefficient of terminal velocities and such....
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  13. #13
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    Metal: That is why I said "probably strong enough to handle the bullet falling" However I am not 100% sure as I have forgotten how to figure out the dynamically linked coefficient of terminal velocities and such....
    Hey no need for that math stuff, I'll just drop a bullet on your head & you tell me if it hurts
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  14. #14
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Quote Originally Posted by SargentMac View Post
    In this scenario, the fight has become one-sided. Say for the sake of argument that the guy on the ground was the instigator. As soon as the victim got the upper hand and did not retreat, he became the aggressor. You would be legally justified in shooting the aggressor, whether he instigated the fight or not.

    The fact that a jerk decides to bully the wrong person doesn't give that person the right to beat the bully to death.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I would call 911.
    I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

    After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.
    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back through the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

    Just my opinion though for what it is worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    At the very least you would probably be charged with reckless endangerment. As far as approaching the fight and in your "commanding voice" ordering them to stop, you would be very much in danger of both jumping you. This is about the same as attempting an arrest in a violent domestic incident. When you try to arrest the husband, the wife jumps in to help......"HIM"
    IMHO, call 911 and be a witness as Gogodawgs has said. YMMV
    These are all very good points to keep in mind.

    To use deadly force in Self Defense, there must be an immediate threat to life or limb at that moment in time.
    To emphasize, an instigator can become a victim in a blink of an eye, if the victim continues the fight when there is no longer an immediate threat.

    On many forums an issue that comes up often, that being involved in a situation and not knowing the players.
    Who knows it may be an off duty officer or an employee, regardless if the attack reaches a level of a deadly threat it is still a deadly threat regardless of who is the aggressor is.
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-21-2010 at 02:45 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
    Posts
    280
    I think there are too many folks looking for a reason to draw. There is no reason to get involved in this fight. Take a postion protect yours and those not involved around you and let them have it out. Call 911 first thing.

    This is not a women or some old guy getting mugged.

  16. #16
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tukwila, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,398
    Wow, I hope I never get caught up in a fight around some of you guys, you'll just be a witness to me being beaten to death. Thanks a lot for thinking about your own arses only.

    It's what you know at that point, and what you know is, someone looks like they will be beaten to death according to the OP.

    Personally, I'd give very loud commands while approaching and watching everyone's hands. We already know what happened at Lake Sam (no warning shots please). While giving the very loud commands to stop, with my strong side back a little with my hand on the grip while still in holster, look for the most dangerous person (the one using deadly force), SCREAM one last command, if no complying, fire center mass, step back, and scan the area for anyone else that wants to pull a weapon. Order everyone to get down, (because at this point, they are a bunch of criminal idiots, and deserve to be treated as such) and stay drawn until I see the red and blue, and when that does happen, I will immediately put my firearm down next to me and kneel with my hands up before I get mistaken for a BG and get my head blown off.

    Sue me.



    *and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by Poosharker View Post
    Wow, I hope I never get caught up in a fight around some of you guys, you'll just be a witness to me being beaten to death. Thanks a lot for thinking about your own arses only.

    It's what you know at that point, and what you know is, someone looks like they will be beaten to death according to the OP.

    Personally, I'd give very loud commands while approaching and watching everyone's hands. We already know what happened at Lake Sam (no warning shots please). While giving the very loud commands to stop, with my strong side back a little with my hand on the grip while still in holster, look for the most dangerous person (the one using deadly force), SCREAM one last command, if no complying, fire center mass, step back, and scan the area for anyone else that wants to pull a weapon. Order everyone to get down, (because at this point, they are a bunch of criminal idiots, and deserve to be treated as such) and stay drawn until I see the red and blue, and when that does happen, I will immediately put my firearm down next to me and kneel with my hands up before I get mistaken for a BG and get my head blown off.

    Sue me.



    *and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*
    +1

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
    Posts
    1,762
    Warning shots are for the movies.

    *and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*
    Why would you be in jail if you are getting sued?

  19. #19
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,522
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfebane View Post
    Greetings,

    I was watching a video clip today and it got me thinking about this question.

    Here's the hypothetical scenario:

    Having dinner in a restaurant and for whatever reason a fight breaks out between a group of people, one side starts to get overwhelmed (no weapons only fists) and it looks like they could be beaten to death.

    Everyone else is yelling for them to stop and for someone to call the police. But at the rate the fight is going it looks like there could be a murder before the police arrive.

    Now my question is this:

    Is it illegal to draw your weapon and point it at the ceiling (it's a one story building with no one above) and discharge it one time to get everyone to stop. Assuming the fighting stops, is what you have done illegal since you believed another citizen was in mortal danger?
    Will you understand why none of us would send you a card while your in prison for shooting the infant in the upstairs aptartment, 2-B while it was sleeping in its crib?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  20. #20
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
    Posts
    280
    ok since we have gone all over on this thread. Read OC ADVOCATE ARRESTED , the Tyler Visser story.

    Now you come walking around the corner, and you see two women on the ground fighting and a guy who you do not know holding a gun to another womens head.
    WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Federal Way, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,667
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthunter View Post
    ok since we have gone all over on this thread. Read OC ADVOCATE ARRESTED , the Tyler Visser story.

    Now you come walking around the corner, and you see two women on the ground fighting and a guy who you do not know holding a gun to another womens head.
    WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
    Take cover, call 911, remove firearm from holster, create cover and try to reason with the suspect with the gun to another women's head until police arrive.
    Live Free or Die!

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Skagit Valley, Washington
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by centermass View Post
    I am sick and tired of this new "accidental" discharge I hear in the news and at work. There is no such thing.
    Really? There is no such thing as an accident?
    I would agree that most unintended firearms discharges are negligent, not accidental.
    BUT- there have been some good court cases RE: whether there is such a thing as an accident.
    The ball falls on the side that there IS such a thing.
    If there can be an accident, there can be an accidental discharge.
    The term is simply too loosely used.....

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Skagit Valley, Washington
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Hey no need for that math stuff, I'll just drop a bullet on your head & you tell me if it hurts
    I took one 6 weeks ago, right between the eyes. It hurt- I bled- I'm still here.
    'Nuff said.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    South Whidbey, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    I took one 6 weeks ago, right between the eyes. It hurt- I bled- I'm still here.
    'Nuff said.

    LOL and just how did that happen??
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over run with mud(s)
    Posts
    791
    actually if you want to get technical there is not officially any such thing as an accident. When I went through EMT school it was called an MVA Motor Vehicle Accident, now it is an MVC Motor Vehicle Collision. It was once called an Accidental Discharge, now it is a Negligent Discharge.

    The reasoning behind this is that if it was an accident there is no one to place the blame on. However as anyone who has been involved in a sticky situation can attest to there can ALWAYS be a way to blame one party or the other, or blame one piece of equipment or another.

    That is why there is not an accident in common police and legal vernacular.
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •