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Weapon Discharge Question

Wolfebane

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
113
Location
Whidbey Island
Greetings,

I was watching a video clip today and it got me thinking about this question.

Here's the hypothetical scenario:

Having dinner in a restaurant and for whatever reason a fight breaks out between a group of people, one side starts to get overwhelmed (no weapons only fists) and it looks like they could be beaten to death.

Everyone else is yelling for them to stop and for someone to call the police. But at the rate the fight is going it looks like there could be a murder before the police arrive.

Now my question is this:

Is it illegal to draw your weapon and point it at the ceiling (it's a one story building with no one above) and discharge it one time to get everyone to stop. Assuming the fighting stops, is what you have done illegal since you believed another citizen was in mortal danger?
 

devildoc5

Regular Member
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Jun 9, 2010
Messages
791
Location
Somewhere over run with mud(s)
I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back throught the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

Just my opinion though for what it is worth.
 

bennie1986

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
368
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
That’s just negligent! Why wouldn’t you just eliminate the threat? That’s legal for sure…

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force — When lawful.

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
 

1245A Defender

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Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,365
Location
north mason county, Washington, USA
the problem;;;

you dont know which one or which group is the instigator,
you really cant shoot the "aggressor" cause you dont know who is who...
a general warning shot, to make everybody stop,
would be a reasonable step to take.
but only if thing were really out of hand.
maybe before a warning shot, a loud command for all to stop or ill shoot would be good!
 

centermass

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
21
Location
Everett, ,
I normally just creep the forums, do not have much to say. But this made me laugh. A warning shot? really? and where is that round going? maybe it hits a stud and travels the cieling and exits hitting someone.

in the event on not know the agressor, it doesnt matter, taking a life no matter on either side.

I agree with the negligent discharge rcw. I am sick and tired of this new "accidental" discharge I hear in the news and at work. There is no such thing.

Knowing what your target is and what is beyond is a basic firearm safety rule.
 

Genken

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
105
Location
Tacoma, WA
I would have gotten up, walked over to the people causing a ruckus, and a loud, commanding voice, and my sidearm clearly visible to them, asked if there was a problem.

If it was later on as your situation states, id move in closer, draw, point, and yell at the top of my lungs(still in a commanding voice) "The man with the gun is telling you retards to break it up!".

Too many ways it could turn out after that. Needless to say, if one is about to be seriously injured or killed, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the one who is about to do the serious injuring or killing. I wouldn't go up and stick it to his head and shoot or anything, but just enough shots in the chest/abdomen region to disable them. If they die then they die. But its a possibility when your too stubborn to listen to a person with a gun in that situation.

Only time I'd "shoot" into a ceiling is if I had blanks...and I won't.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
I would call 911.
I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.
 

tombrewster421

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,326
Location
Roy, WA
I would call 911.
I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.

So far this sounds like the best plan. Only resort to pulling your gun if the idiots come after you.
 

SargentMac

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
100
Location
Vancouver, Washington, United States
you dont know which one or which group is the instigator,
you really cant shoot the "aggressor" cause you dont know who is who...
a general warning shot, to make everybody stop,
would be a reasonable step to take.
but only if thing were really out of hand.
maybe before a warning shot, a loud command for all to stop or ill shoot would be good!

In this scenario, the fight has become one-sided. Say for the sake of argument that the guy on the ground was the instigator. As soon as the victim got the upper hand and did not retreat, he became the aggressor. You would be legally justified in shooting the aggressor, whether he instigated the fight or not.

The fact that a jerk decides to bully the wrong person doesn't give that person the right to beat the bully to death.
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
Shoot into the ceiling??????? Dumb, really Dumb

At the very least you would probably be charged with reckless endangerment. As far as appropaching the fight and in your "commanding voice" ordering them to stop, you would be very much in danger of both jumping you. This is about the same as attempting an arrest in a violent domestic incident. When you try to arrest the husband, the wife jumps in to help......"HIM"
IMHO, call 911 and be a witness as Gogodawgs has said. YMMV
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back throught the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

Just my opinion though for what it is worth.

Actually according to Mythbustes, a bullet fired straight up is merely falling when it comes down, and unlikely to cause significant injury :dude:
 

devildoc5

Regular Member
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Jun 9, 2010
Messages
791
Location
Somewhere over run with mud(s)
Metal: That is why I said "probably strong enough to handle the bullet falling" However I am not 100% sure as I have forgotten how to figure out the dynamically linked coefficient of terminal velocities and such....:lol:
 

Metalhead47

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Apr 20, 2009
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South Whidbey, Washington, USA
Metal: That is why I said "probably strong enough to handle the bullet falling" However I am not 100% sure as I have forgotten how to figure out the dynamically linked coefficient of terminal velocities and such....:lol:

Hey no need for that math stuff, I'll just drop a bullet on your head & you tell me if it hurts :lol:
 

BigDave

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Nov 22, 2006
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Yakima, Washington, USA
In this scenario, the fight has become one-sided. Say for the sake of argument that the guy on the ground was the instigator. As soon as the victim got the upper hand and did not retreat, he became the aggressor. You would be legally justified in shooting the aggressor, whether he instigated the fight or not.

The fact that a jerk decides to bully the wrong person doesn't give that person the right to beat the bully to death.

I would call 911.
I would make sure others got back and away from the ruckus. You do not want to see bottles, silverware, etc being thrown or used as a weapon.

After others are safe, I would in a loud commanding voice let everyone involved know that the police are on their way. I would be prepared to respond to threats against me, but until then I would be a good witness.

I am not too sure about illegal, however I have ALWAYS believed that a weapon should only be pointed at game, targets, or humans you wish to destroy. You must remember that whatever goes up always comes down, doubt it would come back through the exact same hole in the building and the roof is PROBABLY strong enough to handle the bullet falling down...however I would not want to be the one to try it.

Just my opinion though for what it is worth.

At the very least you would probably be charged with reckless endangerment. As far as approaching the fight and in your "commanding voice" ordering them to stop, you would be very much in danger of both jumping you. This is about the same as attempting an arrest in a violent domestic incident. When you try to arrest the husband, the wife jumps in to help......"HIM"
IMHO, call 911 and be a witness as Gogodawgs has said. YMMV

These are all very good points to keep in mind.

To use deadly force in Self Defense, there must be an immediate threat to life or limb at that moment in time.
To emphasize, an instigator can become a victim in a blink of an eye, if the victim continues the fight when there is no longer an immediate threat.

On many forums an issue that comes up often, that being involved in a situation and not knowing the players.
Who knows it may be an off duty officer or an employee, regardless if the attack reaches a level of a deadly threat it is still a deadly threat regardless of who is the aggressor is.
 
Last edited:

ghosthunter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
283
Location
MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
I think there are too many folks looking for a reason to draw. There is no reason to get involved in this fight. Take a postion protect yours and those not involved around you and let them have it out. Call 911 first thing.

This is not a women or some old guy getting mugged.
 

OrangeIsTrouble

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Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,398
Location
Tukwila, WA, ,
Wow, I hope I never get caught up in a fight around some of you guys, you'll just be a witness to me being beaten to death. Thanks a lot for thinking about your own arses only.

It's what you know at that point, and what you know is, someone looks like they will be beaten to death according to the OP.

Personally, I'd give very loud commands while approaching and watching everyone's hands. We already know what happened at Lake Sam (no warning shots please). While giving the very loud commands to stop, with my strong side back a little with my hand on the grip while still in holster, look for the most dangerous person (the one using deadly force), SCREAM one last command, if no complying, fire center mass, step back, and scan the area for anyone else that wants to pull a weapon. Order everyone to get down, (because at this point, they are a bunch of criminal idiots, and deserve to be treated as such) and stay drawn until I see the red and blue, and when that does happen, I will immediately put my firearm down next to me and kneel with my hands up before I get mistaken for a BG and get my head blown off.

Sue me.



*and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*
 

Matt85

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
176
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
Wow, I hope I never get caught up in a fight around some of you guys, you'll just be a witness to me being beaten to death. Thanks a lot for thinking about your own arses only.

It's what you know at that point, and what you know is, someone looks like they will be beaten to death according to the OP.

Personally, I'd give very loud commands while approaching and watching everyone's hands. We already know what happened at Lake Sam (no warning shots please). While giving the very loud commands to stop, with my strong side back a little with my hand on the grip while still in holster, look for the most dangerous person (the one using deadly force), SCREAM one last command, if no complying, fire center mass, step back, and scan the area for anyone else that wants to pull a weapon. Order everyone to get down, (because at this point, they are a bunch of criminal idiots, and deserve to be treated as such) and stay drawn until I see the red and blue, and when that does happen, I will immediately put my firearm down next to me and kneel with my hands up before I get mistaken for a BG and get my head blown off.

Sue me.



*and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*

+1
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Warning shots are for the movies.

*and if I do get sued, I hope someone will see my actions as life-saving and set up a legal defense fund while I receive my three hots and chill on a cot*

Why would you be in jail if you are getting sued?
 

amzbrady

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
Greetings,

I was watching a video clip today and it got me thinking about this question.

Here's the hypothetical scenario:

Having dinner in a restaurant and for whatever reason a fight breaks out between a group of people, one side starts to get overwhelmed (no weapons only fists) and it looks like they could be beaten to death.

Everyone else is yelling for them to stop and for someone to call the police. But at the rate the fight is going it looks like there could be a murder before the police arrive.

Now my question is this:

Is it illegal to draw your weapon and point it at the ceiling (it's a one story building with no one above) and discharge it one time to get everyone to stop. Assuming the fighting stops, is what you have done illegal since you believed another citizen was in mortal danger?

Will you understand why none of us would send you a card while your in prison for shooting the infant in the upstairs aptartment, 2-B while it was sleeping in its crib?
 

ghosthunter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
283
Location
MOUNT VERNON, Washington, USA
ok since we have gone all over on this thread. Read OC ADVOCATE ARRESTED , the Tyler Visser story.

Now you come walking around the corner, and you see two women on the ground fighting and a guy who you do not know holding a gun to another womens head.
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
 
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