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    I dont get it/need help....

    Im confused on why if your doing nothing wrong and are approched by police that people are so unwilling to tell them their name or give them ID...what is so wrong with showing them? im confused..And also i have spoken to several friends of mine that are law enforcement and they all stated that by refusing to give your name or id regardless of suspecting of doing or about to commit a crime is obstruction of justice..any thoughts anyone????

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    Sure. You can start with the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America. We have only the rights that we defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin21 View Post
    Im confused on why if your doing nothing wrong and are approched by police that people are so unwilling to tell them their name or give them ID...what is so wrong with showing them? im confused..And also i have spoken to several friends of mine that are law enforcement and they all stated that by refusing to give your name or id regardless of suspecting of doing or about to commit a crime is obstruction of justice..any thoughts anyone????
    If I were to be asked my name by a cop, absent any criminal activity, I would refuse to give it. I hope this isn't taken as cop bashing, but your cop buddies are idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwikrnu View Post
    If I were to be asked my name by a cop, absent any criminal activity, I would refuse to give it. I hope this isn't taken as cop bashing, but your cop buddies are idiots.
    I second this...they are idiots ! If you don't carry your I.D. with you when OCing then ...gee whiz ocifer, I don't have my ID with me.
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    Police can and will lie to you, however, you cannot lie to them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin21 View Post
    Im confused on why if your doing nothing wrong and are approched by police that people are so unwilling to tell them their name or give them ID...what is so wrong with showing them? im confused..And also i have spoken to several friends of mine that are law enforcement and they all stated that by refusing to give your name or id regardless of suspecting of doing or about to commit a crime is obstruction of justice..any thoughts anyone????
    Maybe these videos will help you to understand. It isn't done out of animosity it is done to protect yourself from an over zealous cop. Once they decide to target you and they have your name it is like open season.

    Please watch these videos and maybe you will understand more.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...p?61990-Videos

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    Why? Because we have the right to free speech, and that includes being silent as well. We also have the right to not incriminate ourselves, that means the right to be silent or the right to not provide any identification or evidence that could be used against you.

    Your law enforcement friends are totally wrong about it being obstruction of justice, or obstructing an officer.

    No law allows officers to arrest for obstruction on a personís refusal to give his or
    her name. Mere silence is insufficient to constitute obstruction. Henes v. Morrissey,
    194 Wis. 2d 339, 533 N.W.2d 802 (1995)

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin21 View Post
    Im confused on why if your doing nothing wrong and are approched by police that people are so unwilling to tell them their name or give them ID...what is so wrong with showing them? im confused..And also i have spoken to several friends of mine that are law enforcement and they all stated that by refusing to give your name or id regardless of suspecting of doing or about to commit a crime is obstruction of justice..any thoughts anyone????
    Like was cited already, there is already case law with WI supreme court that simply refusing to give name is not obstruction.

    If I'm just minding my own business walking down the street, and a cop comes over and starts questioning me and asking my name, then no, no name for you.

    If he's just shooting the ****, talking about guns and open carry in general, then sure. But not active questioning.

    Cops will say "well, it's not normal to see a person carrying a firearm down the street". They are using to seeing bad guys with them. We're having to break the mold, and stop the harassment in those cases of lawful carry.

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    And also i have spoken to several friends of mine that are law enforcement and they all stated that by refusing to give your name or id regardless of suspecting of doing or about to commit a crime is obstruction of justice..any thoughts anyone????
    As has been cited above, this is absolutely false. The case law is cited. As a courtesy to your friends in law enforcement you may want to educate them on the law in Wisconsin. The City of Racine was sued by Wisconsin Carry for arresting one of our members for obstruction for merely refusing to give their name. A judgement of 10,000 was entered against Racine for this illegal arrest without probable cause. Its frightening that those in law enforcement do not know the law.

    Racine had to learn the hard way: http://www.youtube.com/wisconsincarr.../1/PuiO8tixuKY

    Im confused on why if your doing nothing wrong and are approched by police that people are so unwilling to tell them their name or give them ID...what is so wrong with showing them? im confused..
    If you want to show them your ID just because they demand it, thats your choice.

    As to what is wrong with showing them.

    If you have done nothing wrong, why should you show them? This is not a police-state. Citizens are not assumed to be guilty. We have a right to privacy. Police have a duty to follow the law. Why shouldn't you just show police your ID upon demand. Because we are FREE PEOPLE. Freedom means you don't have to show ID to law enforcement just because THEY demand it.

    Freedom means that the police do not get special powers over law-abiding citizens just because they are police.

    Freedom means that police are JUST people, no more or less than you or I, and they have no more moral authority to demand your ID (if you are not breaking the law) than you have moral authority to walk up to a stranger on the street and demand their ID.

    If those principled reasons why you shouldn't show police your ID are not enough here are some practical reasons:

    Police are human... they have prejudices and grudges, and personal issues just like anyone else. Because of the authority their job gives them against criminals, it could be VERY tempting for them to misuse that authority against the law abiding. Maybe the police don't like how I look. Maybe they don't like that I carry a gun. Despite the fact that is all legal, I don't want to give the police my name so they can find out where I live and perhaps wait for me to leave my house and give me "special" attention for driving a couple MPH over the speed limit.

    When I've done nothing wrong, I don't want the police to have my name so that if I run into an arrogant cop who doesn't support the right to keep and bear arms he doesn't go back to the police station and say to all the other cops "yeah, that Nik Clark that lives over on xyz street was a real ass" (just because I open-carry) and have the rest of the police know my name and have that ONE officers personal judgement of me (which is just his own perception based on his personality and his disposition at the moment he interacted with me) imposed on other officers who could decide to run my name, see what I drive and harass me for minor traffic infractions.

    By knowing and exercising my rights, I'm not enabling the police to overstep their authority. Despite doing NOTHING wrong, if I exercise my right to not give my name, I'm letting the police know the limits of their authority. (sounds like your friends need to be reminded of this) History shows us that rights unexercised are rights lost. This just encourages the encroachment of tyranny.

    Its very important that police abide within the law, not outside of it. Its very important that police don't get to assume authority that the law doesn't allow them to.

    If we let police assume authority that the law doesn't allow them to, what good is voting? What good is electing representatives who will go debate laws and debate the limits of the law and the limits of police authority? If we just "do what police say" despite the fact that the law doesn't provide them that authority, we are ENABLING them to assume powers they don't have by law. That skips the legislative process and removes the ability of the people to have a say in the laws they live under.

    We are suppose to have a government OF the people BY the people FOR the people. Not a government of the police, by the police, for the police.
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  10. #10
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    As has been cited above, this is absolutely false. The case law is cited. As a courtesy to your friends in law enforcement you may want to educate them on the law in Wisconsin. The City of Racine was sued by Wisconsin Carry for arresting one of our members for obstruction for merely refusing to give their name. A judgement of 10,000 was entered against Racine for this illegal arrest without probable cause. Its frightening that those in law enforcement do not know the law.

    Racine had to learn the hard way: http://www.youtube.com/wisconsincarr.../1/PuiO8tixuKY



    If you want to show them your ID just because they demand it, thats your choice.

    As to what is wrong with showing them.

    If you have done nothing wrong, why should you show them? This is not a police-state. Citizens are not assumed to be guilty. We have a right to privacy. Police have a duty to follow the law. Why shouldn't you just show police your ID upon demand. Because we are FREE PEOPLE. Freedom means you don't have to show ID to law enforcement just because THEY demand it.

    Freedom means that the police do not get special powers over law-abiding citizens just because they are police.

    Freedom means that police are JUST people, no more or less than you or I, and they have no more moral authority to demand your ID (if you are not breaking the law) than you have moral authority to walk up to a stranger on the street and demand their ID.

    If those principled reasons why you shouldn't show police your ID are not enough here are some practical reasons:

    Police are human... they have prejudices and grudges, and personal issues just like anyone else. Because of the authority their job gives them against criminals, it could be VERY tempting for them to misuse that authority against the law abiding. Maybe the police don't like how I look. Maybe they don't like that I carry a gun. Despite the fact that is all legal, I don't want to give the police my name so they can find out where I live and perhaps wait for me to leave my house and give me "special" attention for driving a couple MPH over the speed limit.

    When I've done nothing wrong, I don't want the police to have my name so that if I run into an arrogant cop who doesn't support the right to keep and bear arms he doesn't go back to the police station and say to all the other cops "yeah, that Nik Clark that lives over on xyz street was a real ass" (just because I open-carry) and have the rest of the police know my name and have that ONE officers personal judgement of me (which is just his own perception based on his personality and his disposition at the moment he interacted with me) imposed on other officers who could decide to run my name, see what I drive and harass me for minor traffic infractions.

    By knowing and exercising my rights, I'm not enabling the police to overstep their authority. Despite doing NOTHING wrong, if I exercise my right to not give my name, I'm letting the police know the limits of their authority. (sounds like your friends need to be reminded of this) History shows us that rights unexercised are rights lost. This just encourages the encroachment of tyranny.

    Its very important that police abide within the law, not outside of it. Its very important that police don't get to assume authority that the law doesn't allow them to.

    If we let police assume authority that the law doesn't allow them to, what good is voting? What good is electing representatives who will go debate laws and debate the limits of the law and the limits of police authority? If we just "do what police say" despite the fact that the law doesn't provide them that authority, we are ENABLING them to assume powers they don't have by law. That skips the legislative process and removes the ability of the people to have a say in the laws they live under.

    We are suppose to have a government OF the people BY the people FOR the people. Not a government of the police, by the police, for the police.
    Nik, One of the best posts ever on this board. Well said sir!

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    Nik, excellent post. Just one more thing: If a non-cop asked you for your name and address, what would you say? I'd refuse. If you're doing nothing wrong, a cop has no more right to know your name and address than a non-cop.

    If anything, the cop is abusing his position to ask your name and address. They know your rights and they're intentionally stepping on them. So no, they don't get my name.

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    And Don't Forget Those Annoying Census Workers

    Same thing applies to Census workers. The Constitution gives them the authority to ask ONE thing. How many people live at this address. Don't let the police or census workers or anyone else bully you or lie to you trying to force you to divulge information they have no right to know. We have to stand up for our rights and we have to KNOW them.

    Everyday I am amazed at how many of my neighbors that I speak to do not have a clue what their rights are. Ever ask a neighbor what he/she would do if a police officer knocked on their door and told them he/she wanted to enter their home and search for illegal items? I have. Every single one said "You have to let them in". Wow. Then I have to teach my neighbors what their rights are and what the police/government workers authority really is and the ways the government can legally enter your home. People today just do not know what their rights are.

    Learn your rights, stand up for your rights, teach your children well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by comp45acp View Post
    Nik, One of the best posts ever on this board. Well said sir!
    some here could construe this as cop bashing.....BUT, I like it..again very well said. although the powers & authority the police have will only increase over time, never decrease....gotta love a militarized national police force.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    thanks for all the info guys...it all makes sense now!!! and i will let my friends no for sure

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    What I have found is that many people don't look at the bigger picture, and logical progression. I have had great success explaining just that. What seems simple and innocent now, can and will morph into more later. It's easy to look at history and see that, apply it to the situation in discussion, and see the likely end result. Another good example is the GM Onstar ability to shutoff the engine in the event of a Police pursuit. Sounds like a good idea right, but who gets to make the decision? What other situations will that be allowed in? Who will decide those decisions? Will they start disabling our vehicles because we forgot an insurance payment, didn't pay a traffic ticket, got a DUI but want to let someone drive your vehicle. Oh sorry can operate the vehicle till the DUI is taken care of. Or if Police are looking for someone will they just call up Onstar and locate and disable the vehicle, and seize it. Not caring who is really inside. It's too easy for a seemingly simple idea to get warped. If it's related to the government it will get distorted and abused, it's been proven through history. I don't trust people who I know don't care about my well being and existence. So the less power over me others have, the safer I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    Another good example is the GM Onstar ability to shutoff the engine in the event of a Police pursuit. Sounds like a good idea right, but who gets to make the decision? What other situations will that be allowed in?
    There are purchase agreements in existence right now that allow the creditor to disable the vehicle on non-payment of an installment.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-24-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Grammar

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    I am not a lawyer

    I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV. I am however, ex-LEO and that gives me a perspective on citizen rights since I no longer have a badge.

    There is one magical question that triggers a detention decision. A Citizen can ask this question of any LEO at any time during the "contact" and it forces the LEO to make a decision (and live with it later if wrong).

    That question is "Am I under arrest"? If the LEO responds by saying yes, then tell the nice LEO in a polite voice that you decline to speak with Police and would like an attorney. Then comply with all orders, but say nothing.

    If LEO respond NO, then politely inform the nice LEO that you appreciate the fine job he/she is doing, but now you really now wish to continue your journey.

    The LEO may try to argue with you to get you to say something other than the above in order to get you to be "chatty". Most LEO are professional, but some are not above what we called in my day "Wyatt Erp Syndrome".

    Or, they may just be genuinely interested in why you are open carrying. In my own experience I have had Wisconsin LEO speak with me about what I was carrying, but it was a friendly conversation. In this particular case, it was an East Troy LEO who wanted to have a brief discussion about accuracy of the Springfield Model 1911 Ultra Compact I had on my side during an open carry picnic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV. I am however, ex-LEO and that gives me a perspective on citizen rights since I no longer have a badge.

    There is one magical question that triggers a detention decision. A Citizen can ask this question of any LEO at any time during the "contact" and it forces the LEO to make a decision (and live with it later if wrong).

    That question is "Am I under arrest"? If the LEO responds by saying yes, then tell the nice LEO in a polite voice that you decline to speak with Police and would like an attorney. Then comply with all orders, but say nothing.

    If LEO respond NO, then politely inform the nice LEO that you appreciate the fine job he/she is doing, but now you really now wish to continue your journey.

    The LEO may try to argue with you to get you to say something other than the above in order to get you to be "chatty". Most LEO are professional, but some are not above what we called in my day "Wyatt Erp Syndrome".

    Or, they may just be genuinely interested in why you are open carrying. In my own experience I have had Wisconsin LEO speak with me about what I was carrying, but it was a friendly conversation. In this particular case, it was an East Troy LEO who wanted to have a brief discussion about accuracy of the Springfield Model 1911 Ultra Compact I had on my side during an open carry picnic.
    Actually, I believe the correct question is 'am I free to leave'. That is basically asking if they have RAS. Am I under arrest is asking if they have PC. If they have RAS and you leave then I believe you can be charged with obstruction/resisting.

    No matter if they have RAS or PC or walked in while you were doing an actual crime, you don't have to identify yourself.

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    I have a question it may be a dumb one for most if not all of you but i see the accronym thrown around alot but have no clue what it is, RAS what is it and what does it mean? (ok 2 questions)

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliverclotheshoff View Post
    RAS what is it and what does it mean?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_b...able_suspicion

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    Am I Free to Leave vs. Am I Under Arrest

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Actually, I believe the correct question is 'am I free to leave'. That is basically asking if they have RAS. Am I under arrest is asking if they have PC. If they have RAS and you leave then I believe you can be charged with obstruction/resisting.

    No matter if they have RAS or PC or walked in while you were doing an actual crime, you don't have to identify yourself.
    Just curious, would it make sense to first ask, "Am I under arrest?" and if the answer is "No", then follow that up with "Am I free to leave?"?

    Or is that inviting trouble in some way?

    If the officer says you're not free to leave, is it appropriate to ask what their RAS is, or is it better to just remain silent and/or ask for a lawyer?

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    If the officer says you're not free to leave, is it appropriate to ask what their RAS is, or is it better to just remain silent and/or ask for a lawyer?
    It is at best useless to ask an officer his RAS because he is not legally bound to tell you the truth, or to argue his decision to you. RAS is between the officer, the DA and the judge.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    Just curious, would it make sense to first ask, "Am I under arrest?" and if the answer is "No", then follow that up with "Am I free to leave?"?

    Or is that inviting trouble in some way?

    If the officer says you're not free to leave, is it appropriate to ask what their RAS is, or is it better to just remain silent and/or ask for a lawyer?

    Thanks.
    I've been told by a lawyer that they do not have to express to YOU what their RAS is.

    It is appropriate to ask (I believe) because that lets the officer know that you are aware of your rights and that should put them on notice to be on their best behavior and be cognizant not to violate them.

    Its semantics, but I wouldn't "ask" for a lawyer I'd just let them know that I don't intend to answer any questions without first speaking to a lawyer.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    Just curious, would it make sense to first ask, "Am I under arrest?" and if the answer is "No", then follow that up with "Am I free to leave?"?

    Or is that inviting trouble in some way?

    If the officer says you're not free to leave, is it appropriate to ask what their RAS is, or is it better to just remain silent and/or ask for a lawyer?

    Thanks.
    As others have said, the LEO doesn't have to tell you his RAS. As soon as he says you are NOT free to go, he is detaining you and the Terry stop rules kick in. He has to either arrest you or allow you to leave within a 'reasonable' period of time and cannot 'take' you anywhere during the Terry stop. He has to investigate 'in the vicinity'.

    Just because you are detained doesn't mean you will be arrested. Let's say that he has RAS because someone called in and said a person fitting your general description held up a liquor store. That can be RAS. Once he finishes his preliminary investigation, he either believes he has PC and arrests/cites you or he determines it's not you or he doesn't yet have PC, he must allow you to go on your way.

    If you don't believe he had RAS, you would take him to court where the judge would determine if he did.

    If for example, the call said 'a Caucasian male approximately 250 pounds missing his left arm' and you are an African American female with both arms and weighing 110, the judge would most likely tell the cop no RAS so you could bring a 4th amendment violation suit to bear.

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