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Thread: Need some help from my Neighbors in WI

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    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    Need some help from my Neighbors in WI

    Going to be traveling in WI over the next couple days. Wondering what the recommended method of transport would be. My plan was all mags unloaded, weapons in locked case in back of my pickup.

    Anyone see issue with that or have a suggestion I am all ears.

    Thanks!
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Unloaded, fully encased in a case designed for firearms, and out of reach. Sounds like you've got it covered.
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    "My plan was all mags unloaded, weapons in locked case in back of my pickup."

    Mags do not have to be unloaded. I take the mag out (clear the chamber) put it in my zipper case and toss it on the seat behind me. (my truck has a back seat)
    If you have a pick-up, you can have it in the passenger compartment. Putting it in the back, even in a locked case would be too risky.

  4. #4
    Regular Member rotty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpent View Post
    . Putting it in the back, even in a locked case would be too risky.
    I have a topper that locks and a locking steel box in the back thats bolted to the bed of the truck so I think it would be secure. I don't feel I will need access to it and the only reason I am bringing it with me is on my way back I am meeting someone back in MN (close to 94) to sell/trade the pistol.

    Thanks for the input though .. I do appreciate it.
    - Knowledge is power and there IS strength in numbers -

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotty View Post
    I have a topper that locks and a locking steel box in the back thats bolted to the bed of the truck so I think it would be secure
    Good plan. In addition to the citation for violating Chapter 167 (Safeguards of Persons and Property prohibitions for vehicle transportation of uncased/loaded weapons), you are also liable for Chapter 941, Crimes Against Public Health and Safety's prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon,

    § 941.23 Carrying concealed weapon.
    Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. ... To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Good plan. In addition to the citation for violating Chapter 167 (Safeguards of Persons and Property prohibitions for vehicle transportation of uncased/loaded weapons), you are also liable for Chapter 941, Crimes Against Public Health and Safety's prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon,

    § 941.23 Carrying concealed weapon.
    Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. ... To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach; 2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
    The bed of a truck is "in reach" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpent View Post
    put it in my zipper case and toss it on the seat behind me.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    .
    A properly unloaded and cased weapon on the back seat would not be hidden or in reach.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    I transport a handgun with my motorcycle all the time (unloaded in a case in the tank-bag.)

    Its within reach, its hidden.
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    I would have to say that there would have to be some legal exceptions for motorcycles.
    Not all have saddle bags or hard bags and it would be pretty hard to keep it out of reach in any circumstance on a motorcycle anyway. However, in a vehicle the question as to out of reach has still not been legally answered other than one judges personal opinion. Not sure that a judges personal opinion dictates law and as I have said before until these issues are challenged we will never know. We have to stop cowering down and start standing up for our rights even if it means through legal battles.

    As far as the tank bag goes, did you have a hard time finding one big enough to fit the case? Or maybe a case could be made to fit the bike like a tank bag. It is a thought.

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    Incidentally, for all of those who have said, "I can't afford to pay an attorney." There is some forms you can fill out called "Dean" paperwork. For those who do not qualify for a public defender because they make to much but also can not afford an attorney, this can be a route for you to take. Stop being afraid to exercise your rights because you may not be able to afford an attorney. If you do not go out there and intentionally violate the law then stand up for your rights. For example, if you inadvertently cross into a GFSZ then you have not violated any law because you did not know you were in a GFSZ. So don't just stand there and let the cops railroad you. Fight it in court, stand up for yourself.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    I would have to say that there would have to be some legal exceptions for motorcycles.
    Motorcycles, bicycles, walking with a backpack, scooters, wheelchairs, hover-rounds,

    I often put a gun unloaded in a case in a backpack as well.

    The Wisconsin DOT says to transport a gun it must be unloaded in a case.

    http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/statepa...nforcement.htm

    If I'm doing nothing else wrong, I am not worried about this "out of reach" concept that is impractical using many of the common modes of transportation.

    There has to be a practical way to transport a firearm using the ordinary conveyances of the day.

    I'm not worried about exposing myself to legal peril if I'm doing nothing else wrong and my only condition was that my firearm was "within reach" yet it was unloaded and in a case. YMMV
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    "Out of reach" -- meaning not within arm's distance-- while unloaded and encased in a vehicle in WI is a myth that has many believers. An encased gun IS out of reach, because there is a case preventing you from touching the firearm. It has been much discussed here and is regarded as controversial. Much ado about nothing in my opinion.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    "Out of reach" -- meaning not within arm's distance-- while unloaded and encased in a vehicle in WI is a myth that has many believers. An encased gun IS out of reach, because there is a case preventing you from touching the firearm. It has been much discussed here and is regarded as controversial. Much ado about nothing in my opinion.
    I agree with Mr. Shotgun, but I have one additional suggestion to provide a bit more protection against even the most over-zealous LEO.

    When I visit my family in WI by car, it is usually in the car that has no trunk. So, I place my Model 1911 in a little metal gun case that I got at Cabela's for $29.00 that has a lock on it. Thus, not only is it "out of my reach and that of any occupant", but it requires a separate action to unlock the lock before the case can be opened. An alternate version of this finds me carrying my handguns in my shooting bag (a small duffel bag with the capability of locking the zipper). While not a hard case, the shooting bag is a "case" within the meaning of WI and US law and the lock makes it crystal clear that regardless of where the case might have slid during transport, it is not "accessible" to anyone (until the lock is removed).

    It is pretty obvious that Wisconsin has patterned its firearm transportation law to match the main points of the Federal Interstate Transportation of a Firearm law. (Even Illinois has to honor that one.)

    I look forward to the day when Wisconsin has a Castle Doctrine law with extension to vehicle and a "make my day" rider that allows one to defend self and family in the home and any other place you have a lawful right to be.
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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    In the Hamdan case (WI SC decision), they state, regarding 941.23:

    "In addition, the statute reaches unloaded firearms as well as loaded ones, see Wis.Stat.§939.22(10) (defining a "dangerous weapon" under the CCW statute), and applies to any weapon within a individual's reach, see Asfoor, 75 Wis.2dat 433-34, if the person knows the weapon is present."

    On the seat next to me, unloaded, in a case, isn't flying, the way I read that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    In the Hamdan case (WI SC decision), they state, regarding 941.23:

    "In addition, the statute reaches unloaded firearms as well as loaded ones, see Wis.Stat.§939.22(10) (defining a "dangerous weapon" under the CCW statute), and applies to any weapon within a individual's reach, see Asfoor, 75 Wis.2dat 433-34, if the person knows the weapon is present."

    On the seat next to me, unloaded, in a case, isn't flying, the way I read that.
    Of course now the legislature will need to spend thousands of dollars debating what "in reach" means.

    My personal sense is that unloaded, cased and in the back seat or on the floor in the back seat would fill the definition so that you would have to make an obvious effort to squirm around to get it and load it that would be visible to any approaching officers.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Impossible to be "Out of reach"

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    "Out of reach" -- meaning not within arm's distance-- while unloaded and encased in a vehicle in WI is a myth that has many believers. An encased gun IS out of reach, because there is a case preventing you from touching the firearm. It has been much discussed here and is regarded as controversial. Much ado about nothing in my opinion.
    I agree with Shotgun and Nik. The transport law is very specific. If I am following the transport law then I am within the law. The concealed carry prohibition is ridiculous because it can never be met. According to the law we violate it every day in Wisconsin. Even putting your firearm in your home safe is in violation of the law. Every time we buy a firearm or take a firearm to and from gun stores, ranges or whatever we violate the concealed carry law because it is hidden (according to many out there) and is within reach whenever it is in a case, a bag, a box or whatever "conceals" it. Buy a handgun from your local gun store...they put it in a white plastic bag and voila'! You just violated Wisconsin's concealed carry law. Absurdity abounds in the laws in Wisconsin.

    I transport my firearm unloaded, encased IAW state law on the seat next to me. 100% in compliance with the law.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    The concealed carry prohibition is ridiculous because it can never be met.
    exactly...

    It makes for great internet debate, but the vehicle carry statute is clear.
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    It is a perfect time to go to the WI Supreme Court website and listen to the oral arguments in the Cole and Hamdan cases. Every single justice recognized the absurdities that result from a too literal interpretation of the the CCW statute, which is why they ruled that when there is no practical alternative and no illegal intent, it is sometimes legal to conceal a weapon... as in Mr. Hamdan's instance. Poor Asst. AG Kassel's job was to provide a defense of a literal reading of the law and the judges openly scoffed at some of his suggestions, e.g., that guns in a gun safe were "technical violations" of the law, but never prosecuted-- to which one justice sarcastically commented something to the effect "so one would have to rely upon the good will of the prosecutors."

    If the "out of reach" side of the debate believe that the "locked steel box" is a good idea, then why? Steel box or not, if you believe the gun has to be "out of reach" in the vehicle then there's a violation whenever the person is within arm's reach of the locked steel box just as surely as there is a violation with the gun in the gun case next to you. Apparently, to that group, a gun in a locked case in a steel box in a sealed vault encased in concrete surrounded by chains and wrapped with bright paper with a bow on top is a violation if you are next to it. If you want to believe that, fine. Don't travel with your guns.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    exactly...

    It makes for great internet debate, but the vehicle carry statute is clear.
    Ahh, what's the internet, without good, social, debate

    I think I'll change my ways, and consider the seat next to me though. Just can't be loaded, and must be encased.

  21. #21
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    If the "out of reach" side of the debate believe that the "locked steel box" is a good idea, then why? Steel box or not, if you believe the gun has to be "out of reach" in the vehicle then there's a violation whenever the person is within arm's reach of the locked steel box just as surely as there is a violation with the gun in the gun case next to you. Apparently, to that group, a gun in a locked case in a steel box in a sealed vault encased in concrete surrounded by chains and wrapped with bright paper with a bow on top is a violation if you are next to it. If you want to believe that, fine. Don't travel with your guns.
    Indeed. How would someone with a smart car transport a gun? Anywhere in that vehicle is within reach. How would someone with an SUV transport a gun? If they have back seat passengers, a gun in the cargo area is EASILY within reach. Its impossible to comply with.
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    The law is an ass that lawyers ride to work. The law is not the only legal entity that is an ass riding lawyers to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Indeed. How would someone with a smart car transport a gun? Anywhere in that vehicle is within reach. How would someone with an SUV transport a gun? If they have back seat passengers, a gun in the cargo area is EASILY within reach. Its impossible to comply with.
    Yep and how about an ATV, snowmobile, small boat, small plane or helicopter?

    I really believe that if a gun is unloaded and in a proper case, it is neither hidden or within reach. The law does state that a dangerous weapon can be an unloaded gun, but it also does not say that a cased gun is within someones reach or hidden.

    So legally what is a hidden gun? What is technically within reach? I think it would have to be uncased, hidden, and within reach to be a violation of the law. I am not sure why this is debated so much here honestly.

    Have we ever seen a case where someone was charged with carrying a concealed weapon when its unloaded and properly cased?

  24. #24
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minuteman View Post
    Have we ever seen a case where someone was charged with carrying a concealed weapon when its unloaded and properly cased?
    Thats not how I would ask the question. I would ask the question "Have we ever seen a case where someone was charged with carrying a concealed weapon when it unloaded and properly cased AND they were not in the act of ANY criminal activity."
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 08-27-2010 at 01:04 PM. Reason: to please Doug
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    AND they were not in the act of ANY other criminal activity."
    That's an interesting premise! "ANY other criminal activity" than what?

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