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Thread: Gifting down ?

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    Gifting down ?

    does any one know if gifting down a gun has to be from a parent? i know if ur under 18 it does but what if ur 18 and a freind wants to buy u a gun for ur birthday or something? for example a pistol for ur 18th?

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    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john118242 View Post
    does any one know if gifting down a gun has to be from a parent? i know if ur under 18 it does but what if ur 18 and a freind wants to buy u a gun for ur birthday or something? for example a pistol for ur 18th?
    This sounds all to much like a "straw" purchase which is "illegal"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    This sounds all to much like a "straw" purchase which is "illegal"


    a straw purchase is my money gifting down it would not be my money there for not a straw purchase from my understanding

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    Quote Originally Posted by john118242 View Post
    a straw purchase is my money gifting down it would not be my money there for not a straw purchase from my understanding
    No it's not!

    "A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves. This term can be applied to any such purchase, but it is most widely used in relation to the sale of fire arms, especially in United States federal"
    (Taken from Wikpedia)

    "In the context of United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted."
    (Taken from Wikpedia)

    As you can see on form 4473 on LINE A "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?" Goes on to say that if you are not then the dealer can not make the sale to you. So yes if your friend who is of legal age went into a gun store and purchased a firearm.Then turned around and sold and or gave said firearm to you it would seem to me it would fall under a "straw purchase". But again that's why we have firearm attorneys who know the laws far better then anyone on this forum who is not one. Now it may be different if your friend did this after you become 18 as you would be of legal age as said in state/federal law. Contact that lawyer I told you to and get all this information from a professional!!!!!!!!!! In the end the buck stops with you it's up to you to confirm any information people give you on this forum NEVER TAKE SOMEONES WORD! Always take the said information and research it for your self. Not that people on this forum are out to give wrong information but sometimes it happens as laws are always changing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireNative2005 View Post
    No it's not!

    "A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves. This term can be applied to any such purchase, but it is most widely used in relation to the sale of fire arms, especially in United States federal"
    (Taken from Wikpedia)

    "In the context of United States federal gun laws, a straw purchase is defined as any purchase from a dealer holding a Federal Firearms License where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a proxy for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted."
    (Taken from Wikpedia)

    As you can see on form 4473 on LINE A "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?" Goes on to say that if you are not then the dealer can not make the sale to you. So yes if your friend who is of legal age went into a gun store and purchased a firearm.Then turned around and sold and or gave said firearm to you it would seem to me it would fall under a "straw purchase". But again that's why we have firearm attorneys who know the laws far better then anyone on this forum who is not one. Now it may be different if your friend did this after you become 18 as you would be of legal age as said in state/federal law. Contact that lawyer I told you to and get all this information from a professional!!!!!!!!!! In the end the buck stops with you it's up to you to confirm any information people give you on this forum NEVER TAKE SOMEONES WORD! Always take the said information and research it for your self. Not that people on this forum are out to give wrong information but sometimes it happens as laws are always changing.
    it also says under that question for the explenation for that question to check off yes if it is a gift for some one else i downloaed the form and read the whole thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by john118242 View Post
    it also says under that question for the explenation for that question to check off yes if it is a gift for some one else i downloaed the form and read the whole thing
    Yes it does but again if you are under 18 and your friend buys a firearm and then sells/gives it to you. As I said before it would be a straw purchase "A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves.

    If you don't like the answers your getting from members then call a lawyer and find out for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireNative2005 View Post
    Yes it does but again if you are under 18 and your friend buys a firearm and then sells/gives it to you. As I said before it would be a straw purchase "A straw purchase is any purchase whereby the purchaser is knowingly acquiring an item or service for someone who is, for whatever reason, unable to purchase the item or service themselves.

    If you don't like the answers your getting from members then call a lawyer and find out for sure.
    im not argueing with you i was just saying. what if the person is 18 and its a handgun is it legal that u know of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by john118242 View Post
    im not argueing with you i was just saying. what if the person is 18 and its a handgun is it legal that u know of?
    Like everyone else is saying ask a lawyer we are not lawyers we are giving our opinion based on our interpretation of the law. What probably 99.9% of us believe is it does not matter if you are 16, 18, 43, or 99 if someone purchases a handgun with the intention of turning it around to sell or gift down to you it is a "straw purchase". Age does not matter a " straw purchase" is a "straw purchase".

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    99.9% would not have any understanding of gifting or private selling of a gun.

    From page 165 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the ATF:
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf



    thank you for the facts very detailed response . i am in contact with lawyers also to verify it just to cover my ass as well because i have found some one who is selling a handgun and i want to buy it but i called the concord atf office and the guy was a ******* and was like no no no no no and basically told me all this crap but then i found it in the actual criminal code book that my criminal justice teacher let me borrow and then also ur response gave me more facts so hopefully everything goes well my thing was when i was on the phone with him i didint want to argue and say he was wrong kind of bad situation there lol .

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    1. Exactly what did you ask him?

    2. Did you get his name?
    i found out what i asked wrong i asked if there was a gifting down law which there isnt there's a gifting down part of the law but its not worded gift and no i didint get his name he was the guy who answered the phone so im guessing he wasint a agent and also i called evan neppan i guess hes a great gun lawyer he rushed me off the phone but he said i couldint buy a handgun through private purchase at 18-20 years old by federal law which he didint give me time to ask which one but he said federal . im soo confused as of right now every one is saying different things the lawyers and atf didint say fact people on here had fact . any input?

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Second, in regards to buying a firearm as a gift for a person under the age of 18 and for a person between the ages of 18 and 21.

    For anyone to permanently provide a person under the age of 18 with a handgun, whether it be by gift or sale, whether it be by a parent or a complete stranger, violates 18 USC 922 (x):


    There are exceptions for temporary transfer for the purposes of employment, farming and ranching, target practice, hunting and instruction.

    In Federal statutes there is one prohibition in regards to transferring a handgun to a person between 18 and 20 years old (due to age only). It is illegal for an FFL to transfer a handgun to a person under 21 years old. That's it. That's all. It is not illegal for an 18 to 20 year old to purchase a handgun from a dealer or from a private party. It is only illegal for the dealer to actually transfer it. A private party can legally transfer the handgun to a person 18 to 20 years old either by gift or by sale (assuming same state residents and state law allows it).

    18 USC 922 (b)(1) is the statute:


    Notice the statute does not prohibit the 18 to 20 year old from purchasing a handgun, from receiving a handgun, nor does it prohibit the transfer of the handgun to a person 18 to 20 years old by a private party.
    "It is not illegal for an 18 to 20 year old to purchase a handgun from a dealer or from a private party." This is misleading. A 'Dealer' by definition must have a FFL. The sale cannot be consummated if the buyer is under 21. Other than that, buying from a private party in NH is completely legal, as is receiving a bona fide gift, i.e., not purchased with your funds, for 18-20 year olds. This of course assumes the receipient is not ineligible to possess, viz., no criminal record that would preclude him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I would respectfully disagree. The Federal law prohibits the transfer TO the person under 21 years of age by the FFL (Dealer).

    Let's say, somehow, an 18 year old went to a dealer and did, somehow, manage to complete the transaction and purchase a handgun. Granted, it should never happen, but let's say it does. So long as the 18 year old presented nothing false to the FFL - who committed the offense? The FFL only committed the offense, because the 18 year old did no action that was prohibited by law, so long as they presented honest and true documents and answers to the FFL and on the form 4473.
    Don't disagree at all. It is the buyer's fault of the process and unlawful act. However, the ATF would come down like a ton of bricks on the seller (dealer) who has the responsibility to acertain the legality of the purchaser, his age in this case. Both could/would be prosecuted if the kid lied. If not, just the dealer--although, causing someone to commit a crime can be actionable as an accessory before the fact. Like buying booze in the old days with some buddy's ID card. No picture ID back in the olden days...so often got the 3rd degree when buying based on DL info. Had to make sure I knew everything on it, err, had I done the deed, of course...

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    So CAN you buy a pistol or rifle for someone who is allowed to possess such firearms? Like for your boyfriend who has bought numerous guns in the past and approved in minutes on the NICS check. So what DO you put on the question that asks you if you are buying it for someone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilRedMeanie View Post
    So CAN you buy a pistol or rifle for someone who is allowed to possess such firearms? Like for your boyfriend who has bought numerous guns in the past and approved in minutes on the NICS check. So what DO you put on the question that asks you if you are buying it for someone else?
    Yes you can when your filling out form 4473 it asks if your the buyer of the firearm. You would check that and check that box that asks "Is this firearm a gift" and your good to go.I did this at Hollow Point Sports with Sam he held a S&W M&P for me and I could not make up so I sent my wife. He said most of the time he will not allow that to take place but because he just ran my information a week ago on another firearm. He said he would feel safe allowing my wife to buy the firearm for me and she followed the above steps. But Sam does not really allow that kind of sale because he is unsure who the firearm is going to.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If your intention is to gift the firearm, you're still buying it for yourself at that moment. What you do subsequently is up to you: gift it, sell it, keep it. Buying a gift is not a straw purchase. You buy the gun and determine what you want to (legally) do next with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewHampshireNative2005 View Post
    Yes you can when your filling out form 4473 it asks if your the buyer of the firearm. You would check that and check that box that asks "Is this firearm a gift" and your good to go.I did this at Hollow Point Sports with Sam he held a S&W M&P for me and I could not make up so I sent my wife. He said most of the time he will not allow that to take place but because he just ran my information a week ago on another firearm. He said he would feel safe allowing my wife to buy the firearm for me and she followed the above steps. But Sam does not really allow that kind of sale because he is unsure who the firearm is going to.
    I'm not aware of a question on the form about it's being a gift. Your wife also bought the firearm for herself, not you, and later legally gifted it to you. As to not allowing that type of sale, the FFL is responsible to the extent the buyer fills out the 4473. If the buyer chooses to say nothing about what he plans on doing with it, nothing the Dealer can do. If some idiot comes in blabbing about who he's buying the gun for, not talking about a gift, he has the legal duty to deny the sale. Or if he reasonably suspects the buyer is under the age of 21. Pretty cut and dried, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    There isn't one. The only question is "Are you the actual purchaser of this firearm." That's it. There are INSTRUCTIONS on the 4473 that specifically state if you are purchasing this firearm with the intention of gifting to another person, you ARE the actual purchaser of the firearm.



    Absolutely!



    Absolutely! Talking to an FFL is kind of like talking to LEO. Keep everything legal and keep your mouth shut. It's none of the FFL's business what I intend to do with my firearm after I purchase it.

    But, heck. I was stationed in Oklahoma. I could purchase handguns in OK based on my orders and military ID, even though I maintained a WY driver's license. My wife could not buy handguns from FFLs in Oklahoma because she only had a WY driver's license and, not being in the military, had no orders to Oklahoma. She did meet the definition of an Oklahoma resident, however, which is presence in the state with the intent of making a home in that state. On multiple occassions she would handle the handguns, pick one out, I would do the 4473 with my info, my orders, my military ID, and pay for it with marital funds that I had access to do with whatever I wanted and after the purchase right there on the spot hand the gun to her as a gift.
    It's funny thinking about it, but when I was stationed in Kalifornia back in the '70s, I could buy anything I wanted with my military ID, OC loaded and target shoot in any reasonable location. How times change.

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