Rifle bearing man shot and killed by SLC police

GenkiSudo +1

This Utah thread has largely died due to the more state specific Utah concealed carry.

GenkiSudo said:

...I can go on alllll day long. What affected some of my friends didn't do the same to me. What screwed me up didn't affect those with me the same way. To give rash generalizations is nonsense and is a disservice to both the police and the unfortunate soldier.

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This is very true.

My only point was if he DID NOT make any aggressive movements or immediately assume the high ready, then it was not necessary to open fire.

However, per one poster here, apparently he fired first, and specifically "Before the officer even got out of his cruiser".

In that case, good job SLPD.

To the soldier, rest in peace brother.

Rest assured to all..., but if it is true that The Soldier fired first.., well.., then..., the Shooting would be Justified.

Word is, that the soldier began to fire at the officer before he even had a chance to stop his cruiser.

If that's the case, then the officer is lucky to be alive, and a good shoot on the part of the police.

Hope this update hasnt been posted yet.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12459686
Interesting information in his own words. Officer Uppson Downes called Barrett a hero.

Kyle

Really?

thx997303 said:

This Utah thread has largely died due to the more state specific Utah concealed carry.

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Perhaps the forum has died due to the behavior or forum members.
Use this thread for example

Perhaps it is the conclusions arrived at before the story comes out.
1. This was and is a correct police response to this situation but previous post have already demonized it.

Secondly:
To post contrary ideas or thoughts is not tolerated well by members on this forum. Hositility and abuse have been the norm.

please dont ask for examples.
Whatever...

The forum isn't dead. lol Everyone is out and about enjoying the short 3-month summer. Also, tedious efforts by members has led to greater police awareness about the legalities, and possible diciplinary consequences, of harassing open carriers. Therefore, there are fewer encounters to report. The term opinion enforcement officer, or OEO for short, has gone mainstream. I have been open carrying all summer. So far, since the incident in April, things have been quiet. That is the way it should be. I'm sure the forum will spark back up a bit when everyone is trapped indoors during the long winter with more idle time in front of the ole computer.

To keep this thread on topic, however, my opinion on the situation is that it could have been handled much differently. If there was evidence to suggest that the guy had engaged in cohesive and intelligent conversation with civilians prior to his lethal encounter, then a plainclothes officer could have approached him as such and conducted a stealthy evaluation of his mental condition. He could have even been incapacitated with a stun gun from behind in a blitz move without killing him.

Again, in my OPINION, any cop who blazes onto a scene like this with gun drawn and starts yelling commands at a guy in camo bearing an AR-15 is a freaking idiot. If the guy isn't killing people and just standing there, send an unmarked car with plain-clothes officers in and plan what you are going to do first without escalating the situation into an immediate fireball of chaos. He got lucky with that shot, but he could have easily missed, and then the guy would have sent even more bullets in all directions. Personally, I think the officer should be held responsible for any harm to persons or property because of his wreckless, ignorant and cavalier maneuver. Hero, Ha! Whatever.

Kevin

Wow,


Send a plain clothes officer to evaluate the mental condition and disable with a stun gun blitz attack?
Are you for real?

OH MY HECK DUDE!
Hold the cop responsible for the behavior of another person?
Really!

Sir, You just dont make any sence to me.

Do you have any clue the time it takes to put some of your fantasy into action? No in real time not dream time.
Taking a stun gun to a gun fight? LALALALALLALAALLA wow. Nice thought, might work, you going to bet innocent lives on it? Then you probably will want to hold the cop resposible for anyone that gets hurt if that STUNNING stun attack fails.

Which way do you really want it to be?

You want your kevlar shirt with a red "S" on it delivered UPS?

I could go on but I just dont think it would make any difference.

I still stand on firm on my opinion. Have somebody nail you with a stun gun from 10 feet away and see if you still think I'm crazy. Tell them to hold down the trigger and deliver the voltage for about 4 seconds. Then resist and have them shock you some more. See how far you get.

Check your facts. The guy was not violent until cops showed up. In fact, according to the witnesses that talked to the guy before he was shot, he was not even breaking any laws:

76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
(1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include:
(a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior which is threatening; or
(b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a).
(2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force:
(a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or
(b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.

According to state law, he was in compliance because his intent while exhibiting the AR-15, in his mind, was to "protect" dignitaries in the hotel. If you disagree, find the law that makes standing outside a hotel with an AR-15 illegal.

76-1-105. Common law crimes abolished.
Common law crimes are abolished and no conduct is a crime unless made so by this code, other applicable statute or ordinance.

What evidence do police have that he was exhibiting a dangerous weapon in a threatening manner? He never threatened anyone. He was not even in violation of the law, yet, he was approached at gunpoint by police, and his military training kicked in. The resulting shootout was the consequence. Police had plenty of time to assess the situation and take appropriate action. The guy was just standing there not doing anything. Stupid; just plain stupid.


Kevin

The idea of trying to use a taser against this guy would not be practical because of the amount of gear he had on. The probes will go deep, but not smart when the guy is in full battle gear, the body armor would most likely stop one if not both probes, and both are needed for the device to be effective. Had they tried to deploy a taser against this guy and been ineffective, the outcome could have been much worse.

And let's not forget the two officers who were killed when doing the very same thing....they attempted to subdue an armed man with a taser and their lives are lost. There's an escalation of force for a reason...you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. It's how long after the original incident and you really think that the officer came to the scene like Starsky and Hutch screeching tires, jumping over his hood with guns a blazin'?

Again, in my OPINION, any cop who blazes onto a scene like this with gun drawn and starts yelling commands at a guy in camo bearing an AR-15 is a freaking idiot. If the guy isn't killing people and just standing there, send an unmarked car with plain-clothes officers in and plan what you are going to do first without escalating the situation into an immediate fireball of chaos. He got lucky with that shot, but he could have easily missed, and then the guy would have sent even more bullets in all directions. Personally, I think the officer should be held responsible for any harm to persons or property because of his wreckless, ignorant and cavalier maneuver. Hero, Ha! Whatever.

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Have you even read the articles on this case? Do you have any military, law enforcement experience or common sense to justify your OPINION on tactics when dealing with armed personnel? You can have your opinion all you want....doesn't make your opinion any less ignorant, idiotic and fanatical.

I realize you feel victimized by the system. You feel slighted and persecuted by officers, the government and the world in general. Honestly I think you should seek mental help, medication or both. And I'm not saying that to be a dick...I honestly believe that.

What evidence do police have that he was exhibiting a dangerous weapon in a threatening manner? He never threatened anyone. He was not even in violation of the law, yet, he was approached at gunpoint by police, and his military training kicked in. The resulting shootout was the consequence. Police had plenty of time to assess the situation and take appropriate action. The guy was just standing there not doing anything. Stupid; just plain stupid.

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Learn to read the facts that are known.

To summarize: You don't come at someone in full battle rattle like a ninja to 'conduct a stealthy evaluation of his mental condition'. You seriously need some help...either that or you are the worlds greatest forum troll and have fooled me time and again. Seek help. The world isn't after you, the Masons don't really run the world and, like it or not, Obama is your President.

Kevin, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

No troll here. Just letting my emotions get the best of me lately I guess. Tazer isn't such a good idea. Forgot to take into account his gear. Anyhow, I take the criticism, although not constructive, and tongue lashing as a wake-up call to get back on track. Lots of things in my personal life have spilled over into areas they shouldn't. This isn't the place to rant just to feel better. I did some more digging into the actual fact surrounding the incident with the soldier. I now agree that police acted appropriately. My comments were pretty ignorant. I have known few police that aren't empowered assholes, so I tend to be a little biased. It's something I'm working on fixing.

"God have mercy on your soul" though ? I didn't know that my soul was in danger for something like a bad post. You sound a little self-righteous and judgemental. Who's the idiot now? Maybe you should get some help too.

Kevin

So let me get this straight......

A law abiding citizen.....there has been NO, ZERO, ZIP, NADDA information to the contrary....... is exercising his second amendment right by Open Carrying (that is what this board is about right?) a firearm.

Government agents, in the form of Law Enforcement Officer(s) (remember, no mention of any laws broken) blaze onto the scene and start making demands of the law abiding citizen.

SORRY....EPIC FAIL....absent RAS there was no reason to do so. Had they, as has been suggested, simply walked up and engaged in conversation....... and yes, I DO EXPECT them to take risks such as that, it is part of their job description. If they don't like it, they can drive a bus or something....... while on alert to the possibility of escalation by the citizen (who has not broken any law they know of...and in fact there has been no mention of any law broken before the government agents arrived)......

Now, do I want cops getting shot unnecessarilly? NO

Do I want citizens RIGHTS to be respected? YES

I carry daily, and openly almost excusively. I also carry "sterile" because, while I can refuse to provide ID to a government agent, if he wants it he'll violate my rights and take it through the use of government sanctioned, though illegal, force. My wallet remains in my vehicle with my ID and CHL. IF I am going into a location that requires my CHL to be lawful, only then will I carry ID.

If a government agent approaches me, I prepare for the worst, and hope for the best. He WILL NOT get my name unless he can give RAS. He WILL NOT get my ID (unless I am in one of the aforementioned areas which require it). He WILL NOT get any information as to where I'm coming from (that way), where I'm going (that way), why I'm carrying (same reason you do). He WILL NOT inspect my weapon without violating my expressly stated (by me to him) Constitutional rights as recorded on audio.

Thankfully I live in an area where government agents understand that The People also have the right to be armed, and openly so. When I travel, it's not always the situation.

Bottom line, the dead man had broken no laws until government agents escalated the situation. Government agents are NOT here to escalate situations, harrass law abiding citizens, or to start screaming orders at gunpoint to law abiding citizens. Unfortunately, agencies and agents across the country are doing just that and in ever increasing numbers. They are also doing so with ever increasing military tactics and equipment.

WAKE UP AMERICA

Logically, not having this information means the officer could not have known of the danger likely posed by the AWOL and now deceased soldier. However, now that we have this information it seems far less likely that the incident was "provoked" by the officer's response.

Charles

Full article at:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12790795

or in the SLTrib.

Excerpts:

SALT LAKE CITY -- A report says Army officials knew a distraught and AWOL soldier recently back from Afghanistan was headed to Utah with ammunition, weapons and a grudge. But they didn't warn local authorities.
YouTube video shows Barrett at Grand America Hotel parking lot.

Army Spc. Brandon Barrett was wearing body armor and military fatigues when he was shot and killed by a Salt Lake City police officer who returned fire in an Aug. 27 shootout at a downtown intersection near the Grand America Hotel.

The Salt Lake Tribune cites Army records for a Tuesday report saying Army investigators were worried about a mass shooting.

...

The newspaper cites text messages Barrett sent warning that he was preparing for death with, "one hell of an argument and about 1,000 rounds" to prove his point.

Barrett had sent several messages to his fellow soldiers saying he was going to Utah to "make a name for himself."

He reportedly told his friends to "watch the news" in Utah.

...

Appears he was luring police there by walking around like he did.

Seems police were likely his target.

And how many times have we seen the post action hatchet job perpetrated upon law abiding citizens who were doing nothing illegal?

I'm not saying that he was NOT there to instigate an encounter but I am saying that we have to be aware of the entirely one sided monster of the MSM and government. Were the man absolutely 100% simply there lawfully they still would turn on the "spin machine" and create a monster....you KNOW it.

Then there is the "judicial" system that intimidates citizens into submission (not applicable in this case)....we all know that they pile on the charges and then offer a plea "deal" to some lesser charge knowing that the vast majority can not afford the defend themselves against the nearly limitless financial resources of the state......for those who think the public defender you MAY get assigned is actually going to present a decent case, you need to open your eyes.

I'm sure that one of these days I'll find myself on the "wrong side" of the "justice" system, it's bound to happen to anyone who does more than just carry "when it's safe". I carry daily, I do not avoid engaging the system, I simply go about my daily business while lawfully armed. If they don't like it, then they can change the laws....if they can.

and

We-the-People said:

And how many times have we seen the post action hatchet job perpetrated upon law abiding citizens who were doing nothing illegal?

I'm not saying that he was NOT there to instigate an encounter but I am saying that we have to be aware of the entirely one sided monster of the MSM and government. Were the man absolutely 100% simply there lawfully they still would turn on the "spin machine" and create a monster....you KNOW it.

Then there is the "judicial" system that intimidates citizens into submission (not applicable in this case)....we all know that they pile on the charges and then offer a plea "deal" to some lesser charge knowing that the vast majority can not afford the defend themselves against the nearly limitless financial resources of the state......for those who think the public defender you MAY get assigned is actually going to present a decent case, you need to open your eyes.

I'm sure that one of these days I'll find myself on the "wrong side" of the "justice" system, it's bound to happen to anyone who does more than just carry "when it's safe". I carry daily, I do not avoid engaging the system, I simply go about my daily business while lawfully armed. If they don't like it, then they can change the laws....if they can.[/QUOT

Simialar to your one sided opinion here?

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Well documented facts do not an opinion make.

Across the country the government controlled MSM (you realize you need permission from them to operate any major media outlet right?) spins stories on a daily basis. The era of journalists that kept the government in check with the light of public disclosure is long gone. Replaced by an era of activist reporting.

How about that CNN story on the guy that was carrying the AR15 near the Obama appearance remember that? They were spinning it as a racial issue of the "racist tea partiers" opposed to Obama.....they used carefully cropped and selected clips of the man carrying the AR becase......HE WAS BLACK.

Now try to tell me that was not blantant SPIN aimed as discrediting the political opposition of the party they have chosen to work for!

The judicial system is also well documented to use intimidation tactics on those unlucky enough to fall into their clutches. Piling on charges, burying the defendant in legal fees, threatening massive jail time to coerce lesser pleas, etc. DOCUMENTED to happen nationwide and on a daily basis.

All I'm saying is don't take anything at face value.

Tho it applies only peripherally in this thread, it does apply.

I find it interesting that, when someone breaks no laws, it's ok for the cops to show up, badger, threaten, intimidate, etc., and somehow, it's the one who was breaking no laws that was 'baiting' the cops....

The forum's rules on cop bashing are clear, and often stretched into all kinds of interesting things for the purpose of censorship.

I ask, when will bashing the cops' victims go out of style? Why are the police a 'protected class' on this forum? Yet us citizens, whom this forum claims to be all about, are not?

This thread is just another example of how it is not permitted to cast doubt upon the Media or the Cops without being ridiculed. Were the roles reversed, censorship would ensue.

Did this guy act violent before the cops antagonized him? Did 'authorities' create their own excuse to kill someone and get away with it, yet again? Some witnesses seem to suggest this, but it's taboo to question the State's Agents and their Media lapdogs.... Pile on! Victim Bashing is entirely permissible as long as the aggressor wears a badge and/or uniform...