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Thread: Asked to leave a country park?

  1. #1
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Asked to leave a county park?

    I was reading this thread over in the Michigan forum:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...arysville-Stop

    That got me thinking. If you were in a county park (not by a school zone), open carrying, and you were asked to leave by law enforcement, how would you handle that?

    In their case, they were asked for ID and then asked to leave, and some "arguing" went on first. Open carrier CLEARLY had the debate won in the audio.

    What would you do?
    Last edited by xenophon; 08-28-2010 at 12:41 AM. Reason: subject spelling correction

  2. #2
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    winning a debate with a cop can still get a night stick shoved up your rear. i'd comply, get some names, report it to wisconsincarry, and get their opinion on it. some cop's opinion realy doesn't matter to me, wisconsincarry's opinion matters to me.

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    The road to Hell is paved with what-ifs.

    I'd leave on demand of an agent of the municipality rather than be trespassed. When asked for "ID" I state my name and residence.

    I would not debate (with a fool), as I/we do here, because debate is structured with rules not acknowledged by all.

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    Wow!
    I got to hand it to the guys who were being harassed by the cops, I don't think I could have kept from busting out laughing at the ridiculous statements spewing forth from cops mouths.

    What a bunch of asshats!

    "How do i know you're not a felon?"
    My reply would have been "How do you know half the people here are not felons? You Don't! so just walk away and quit acting like a fool!

  5. #5
    Regular Member anmut's Avatar
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    The biggest issues in dealing with LEO's:
    - They are taught at the academy/school that they are "Always Right In Order To Control The Situation."

    - They spend the majority of the time dealing with morons who debate and lie to them with every breath. Hence you are always "Assumed stupid until proven otherwise."

    - Many are under-educated in the basic civil rights. While these were taught in classes most men and women who become law enforcement are going into the field because class room learning wasn't their cup of soup. The 40 hours spent on these rights are soon forgotten or muddied with "officer safety" and "evidence gathering" protocols.

    And what I see is the biggest reason:
    A law enforcement officer's job has become an overwhelming tumor of political correctness and gray area bureaucratic politics. Long gone are the days of To Protect And To Serve the public. But I don't blame our government for this - I blame the people. We have become a nation of "protect me at any cost, including the loss of our constitutional rights." Personal responsibility and accountability have been replaced by weak generations that couldn't or wouldn't want to live without the security blanket of big government.

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    Regular Member AdamXD's Avatar
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    Doesn't your first name and the state which you reside in satisfy the "name and residence" required if ID is not available?

    Example:

    Officer: Can I see you ID, sir?
    Me: I'm sorry Officer, but I don't have ID on my person. I am only required to carry ID when operating a vehicle.
    Officer: What's your name and address then?
    Me: My name is Adam and I live in Wisconsin.

    Does that satisfy the verbal ID request?
    J.A.Salinas
    "Natural Selection is another way of God telling you you're an idiot"

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    I believe so, except that "Wisconsin" is too large to be informative of your residence. I would say town, "Washington Island, Door County".

    You are required to be able to establish your privilege to drive a motor-vehicle by surrendering your DL (registration and proof of insurance) on demand. Your Fourth Amendment Right against unwarranted (searches and) seizures of your papers protects your identification documents from government seizure for inspection.

    In a situation where a verbal identification is adequate, so is silence. Or commanding privacy and your First Amendment Right of Association. Call the cop's bluff and you may get detained/arrested/incarcerated while your identity is established. We have only the Rights that we defend.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamXD View Post
    Doesn't your first name and the state which you reside in satisfy the "name and residence" required if ID is not available?

    Example:

    Officer: Can I see you ID, sir?
    Me: I'm sorry Officer, but I don't have ID on my person. I am only required to carry ID when operating a vehicle.
    Officer: What's your name and address then?
    Me: My name is Adam and I live in Wisconsin.

    Does that satisfy the verbal ID request?
    Thankfully in MI, we don't have to give our name and address. If they ask for them, we ask what crime we are suspected of committing. We don't have to give our names or address if we are not suspected of having committed, are in the process of committing, or about to commit a crime.

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    Wow!
    I got to hand it to the guys who were being harassed by the cops, I don't think I could have kept from busting out laughing at the ridiculous statements spewing forth from cops mouths.

    What a bunch of asshats!

    "How do i know you're not a felon?"
    My reply would have been "How do you know half the people here are not felons? You Don't! so just walk away and quit acting like a fool!
    "How do i know you're not a felon?"
    answer: "How do you know ANY person walking with kids is not a dangerous pedophile, and that they don't have restraining orders prohibiting them from contact with those under 18?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamXD View Post
    Doesn't your first name and the state which you reside in satisfy the "name and residence" required if ID is not available?

    Example:

    Officer: Can I see you ID, sir?
    Me: I'm sorry Officer, but I don't have ID on my person. I am only required to carry ID when operating a vehicle.
    Officer: What's your name and address then?
    Me: My name is Adam and I live in Wisconsin.

    Does that satisfy the verbal ID request?


    Officer: Can I see you ID, sir?
    Me: ID?
    Officer: Identification...
    Me: Identification is an action, not an object. While I suppose you could observe me identifying the objects around us, I am a bit confused as to why you would want to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamXD View Post
    Doesn't your first name and the state which you reside in satisfy the "name and residence" required if ID is not available?

    Example:

    Officer: Can I see you ID, sir?
    Me: I'm sorry Officer, but I don't have ID on my person. I am only required to carry ID when operating a vehicle.
    Officer: What's your name and address then?
    Me: My name is Adam and I live in Wisconsin.

    Does that satisfy the verbal ID request?
    Except, if you are really in possession of your ID, then in this case you are obstructing an officer (never lie to a cop, they can lie to your face but you can't lie to them). Before giving your name or any other information, ask "Am I being detained or am I free to go". If he says you are free to go, say "Because you said I am not being detained, I am now ending this conversation and will leave this area to go about my business". Then walk away.

    I don't choose to even have a buddy-buddy conversation with some random cop about OC. Some people would choose to talk casually with a pro-carry officer, but I would simply say "thanks for your support" and continue with my business.

  12. #12
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithman View Post
    Except, if you are really in possession of your ID, then in this case you are obstructing an officer (never lie to a cop, they can lie to your face but you can't lie to them). Before giving your name or any other information, ask "Am I being detained or am I free to go". If he says you are free to go, say "Because you said I am not being detained, I am now ending this conversation and will leave this area to go about my business". Then walk away.

    I don't choose to even have a buddy-buddy conversation with some random cop about OC. Some people would choose to talk casually with a pro-carry officer, but I would simply say "thanks for your support" and continue with my business.
    Yeah don't confirm or deny if you have ID (when not driving, of course). Just refuse to give it to them, politely.

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    In Milwaukee Co you will be cited for carrying a weapon in a county park so you won't have to worry about being asked to leave. This is a battle that we have yet to fight, only prepared for...a bit...

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvtschultz View Post
    In Milwaukee Co you will be cited for carrying a weapon in a county park so you won't have to worry about being asked to leave. This is a battle that we have yet to fight, only prepared for...a bit...
    Milwaukee County Parks are restricted? I have carried in the park by my house many times walking the dog. I was under the impression that statute was removed/reworded since it is not in the standard list of places that we quote as being restricted. I already know that technically having a dog in the park is restricted though it is very rarely enforced. If enforced at all.

    Is this just something that has not been tested? I know it can be said that it is more restrictive than the state but not sure what has been said about it in the past.

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    We were going to have a picnic at Greenfield Park (West Allis) but didn't want to push the issue of the parks prohibition at the time. Here is the specific Milwaukee Co ordinance:

    47.05. Use of firearms, fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow and trapping; throwing of missiles; making of fires; deposit or breakage of tin cans, bottles and glassware; prohibitions.
    (1) Use of firearms and fireworks; hunting with bow and arrow; trapping. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description, nor shall any person engage in trapping within any park or parkway without a written permit of the department of parks, recreation and culture; nor shall any person hunt with bow and arrow within any park or parkway. No person shall carry, fire or discharge any gun, pistol or firearm, nor any rocket, torpedo or other fireworks of any description upon any premises owed or leased by Milwaukee County which is not part of the county parks and parkways. The word "gun" shall include airgun.

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    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvtschultz View Post
    We were going to have a picnic at Greenfield Park (West Allis) but didn't want to push the issue of the parks prohibition at the time. Here is the specific Milwaukee Co ordinance:
    Ack. This isn't preempted, due to the state park ban? (i.e. it's just as stringent?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    Ack. This isn't preempted, due to the state park ban? (i.e. it's just as stringent?)
    This event came on the heals of Brad Krause's court date and was moved to a private residence instead. We were in contact with the Milwaukee County Sheriff's, office who found out about it through the West Allis PD, at the time and they stated that we would be cited and could face $800 in fines each. I think that the parks ban is unenforceable, the organizer of the event (not I) didn't want the troubles.

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    Grandfathered ordinances only unenforcable in § 66.0409. All others pay cash.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvtschultz View Post
    I think that the parks ban is unenforceable,
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats. Annotated
    § 66.0409 Local regulation of firearms.
    (1) In this section:
    (a) “Firearm” has the meaning given in s. 167.31 (1) (c).
    (b) “Political subdivision” means a city, village, town or county.
    (c) “Sport shooting range” means an area designed and operated for the practice of weapons used in hunting, skeet shooting and similar sport shooting.


    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including
    ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.
    No mention yet of unenforceable!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats. Annotated § 66.0409
    (3) (a) Nothing in this section prohibits a county from imposing a sales tax or use tax under subch. V of ch. 77 on any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, sold in the county.
    (b) Nothing in this section prohibits a city, village or town that is authorized to exercise village powers under s. 60.22 (3) from enacting an ordinance or adopting a resolution that restricts the discharge of a firearm.

    (4) (a) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, if the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.

    (am) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision from continuing to enforce until November 30, 1998, an ordinance or resolution that is in effect on November 18, 1995, and that requires a waiting period of not more than 7 days for the purchase of a handgun.

    (b) If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17, 1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.

  19. #19
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Ok I'm confused. Does the state of WI have a ban on state park carry? I couldn't find a statute reference.

  20. #20
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    Ok I'm confused. Does the state of WI have a ban on state park carry? I couldn't find a statute reference.
    29.089 Hunting on land in state parks and state fish
    hatcheries. (1) Except as provided in sub. (3), no person may
    hunt or trap on land located in state parks or state fish hatcheries.
    (2) Except as provided in sub. (3), no person may have in his
    or her possession or under his or her control a firearm on land
    located in state parks or state fish hatcheries unless the firearm is
    unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case.

    (3) A person may hunt deer, elk, wild turkeys, or small game
    in a state park, or in a portion of a state park, if the department has
    authorized by rule the hunting of that type of game in the state
    park, or in the portion of the state park, and, except as provided in
    s. 29.063 (5), if the person holds the approvals required under this
    chapter for hunting that type of game.
    History: 1989 a. 214; 1997 a. 237; 1997 a. 248 s. 599; Stats. 1997 s. 29.089; 2001
    a. 109; 2005 a. 286.
    Cross Reference: See also ss. NR 10.001 and 10.28, Wis. adm. code.
    Emphasis added.

  21. #21
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Emphasis added.
    So if a county has banned firearms in the county park, like Milwaukee has, that is as stringent as the state law? I know state parks allow them as long as they are UNLOADED and ENCASED. But then that's not open carrying.

  22. #22
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenophon View Post
    So if a county has banned firearms in the county park, like Milwaukee has, that is as stringent as the state law? I know state parks allow them as long as they are UNLOADED and ENCASED. But then that's not open carrying.
    This is a matter of debate and as far as I know will need to be a subject of litigation. The municipalities contention is that since the state can bar OC in state parks, they can bar OC in municipal parks. I believe 'our' contention is that since there are more municipal parks, the sheer number makes it more restrictive.

    I personally haven't made up my mind on it.

    If I'm missing something, I'm sure someone will correct me.

  23. #23
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    Since when are stringent and restrictive synonymous?

    None the less, the municipal ordinance legality is up to the municipality to defend. We are but law abiding citizens. RULE 15! No debate, no stylin' an' profilin'!

  24. #24
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    RULE 15! No debate, no stylin' an' profilin'!
    Rule 15 allows debate, just not condoning.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 09-02-2010 at 09:53 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member xenophon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Rule 15 allows debate, just not condoning.
    When I'm traveling from county to county, I'm just not going to know which ones have (city/county) park bans and which don't, which sucks.

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