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Hypothetical: Stop Robber at Gunpoint?

DoomGoober

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
63
Hypothetical (sorry if this has been asked before):

Someone's been sneaking into our office building and stealing laptops. I work late at night and I'm often armed. Let's say I catch the robber, draw on him and tell him to stay put. I call 9-1-1 and while I'm waiting for the cops, he tries to flee.

What would you do? It's probably not legal (or morally right) to shoot at him. I thought about putting a round near him (but I'd be afraid of over-penetration) and if he knows I'm not going to shoot him, he's just going to run. Any suggestions?
 
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TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
Hypothetical (sorry if this has been asked before):

Someone's been sneaking into our office building and stealing laptops. I work late at night and I'm often armed. Let's say I catch the robber, draw on him and tell him to stay put. I call 9-1-1 and while I'm waiting for the cops, he tries to flee.

What would you do? It's probably not legal (or morally right) to shoot at him. I thought about putting a round near him (but I'd be afraid of over-penetration) and if he knows I'm not going to shoot him, he's just going to run. Any suggestions?

1. I bet you'll be fired, so prepare for that.

If it's just laptops, and he's unarmed, you're best NOT pulling a gun.... Don't pull your gun unless you intend on using it.
 

Ruby

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,201
Location
Renton, Washington, USA
If he is just stealing laptops and not posing a threat to life or limb, no, I wouldn't shoot. A life, even a thief's, is worth more than a laptop. I would call 911 and concentrate on getting a good description for the police, assuming he flees when he sees you.
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
Don't Shoot

No threat to life or limb of you or co-workers, NO SHOOT! (no warning shots either). Just try to remember all details, face, clothes, what he touched (for finger prints), ect and call 911. Shooting a coward in the back is bad form.
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
DON'T SHOOT. OR DRAW.

Legal? NO

Moral? YES

Loose your job? YOU BETCHA.


Threads like this come up from time to time, they always tend to be amusing. smileypopcorneating.gif
Cuz I say you are morally justified in shooting the basturd in the back as he runs off with your laptop. But I wouldn't reccomend doing it. He'd probably drop it then collapse & bleed on it, thereby ruining it anyway.:mad:
 

SargentMac

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
100
Location
Vancouver, Washington, United States
DON'T SHOOT. OR DRAW.

Legal? NO

Moral? YES

Loose your job? YOU BETCHA.


Threads like this come up from time to time, they always tend to be amusing. View attachment 3742
Cuz I say you are morally justified in shooting the basturd in the back as he runs off with your laptop. But I wouldn't reccomend doing it. He'd probably drop it then collapse & bleed on it, thereby ruining it anyway.:mad:

Use a good JHP that won't punch through. Shoot him in the back, he collapses forward and bleeds out inside himself. Minimal blood on your laptop. Besides, a little blood never hurt anything. :lol:

All joking aside, you'd be better off carrying a camera around (already recording) than drawing down on the guy. And make sure you get video of him while you hit him with OC spray.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
It may be legal to shoot him too. But look at the answers in this thread, now think how are the Cops, jury, etc, will think.

This mindset is something I think needs to change.
Would I shoot no, but I think it is totally justifiable, don't be a crook and you won't get shot at.
 

deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
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Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
Firstly, it's burglar, not robber.

now think how are the Cops, jury, etc, will think.

I think the cops would think "If I'm confronting a burglar in the middle of the night, I'm going to have my gun drawn too."

It's a reasonable use of force, in my opinion. Confronting a known felon in the middle of the night? I will absolutely point my gun at him. Easy to demonstrate that it's reasonable: Every cop called to the stand will testify that he would do the same thing.

Remember: reasonableness is the test when evaluating use of force.

You would never go to court over pointing a gun at a burglar, at least not in Washington. It happens every once in a while; we read about it in the paper.
 

dan10mmman

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
26
Location
Des Moines, Washington, USA
you know, the only reason some people are alive is because its illeagal to shoot them. With that in mind try to remember that things [objects] are not on the same level as life. you can replace things, not lives. Not a lesson you want to learn the hard way.
Not that the thought hasn't crossed my mind.
alternative measures......camera's are less expensive than laptops. put in a few and share what they record with your local PD.
hire security.
dogs.
motion sensors..........................
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
As other have said, depending upon the company you may loose your job regardless if you lawful or not.

If we are to assume your employer condoned such actions or not, one would be with in a legal right to draw your firearm to stop and detain the perpetrator, but would not be able to shoot unless they came after you, if they were running away then no, there would be no threat.

RCW 9A.52.020
Burglary in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of burglary in the first degree if, with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, he or she enters or remains unlawfully in a building and if, in entering or while in the building or in immediate flight therefrom, the actor or another participant in the crime (a) is armed with a deadly weapon, or (b) assaults any person.

(2) Burglary in the first degree is a class A felony.

WPIC 60.01 Burglary—First Degree—Definition

A person commits the crime of burglary in the first degree when he or she enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein, and if, in entering or while in the building or in immediate flight therefrom, that person or an accomplice in the crime [is armed with a deadly weapon][or][assaults any person.]

WPIC 60.02 Burglary—First Degree—Elements

To convict the defendant of the crime of burglary in the first degree, each of the following elements of the crime must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt:
(1) That on or about __________ the defendant entered or remained unlawfully in a building;
(2) That the entering or remaining was with intent to commit a crime against a person or property therein;
(3) That in so entering or while in the building or in immediate flight from the building [the defendant][or][an accomplice in the crime charged][was armed with a deadly weapon][or][assaulted a person]; and
(4) That any of these acts occurred in the State of Washington.
If you find from the evidence that each of these elements has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of guilty.
On the other hand, if, after weighing all the evidence, you have a reasonable doubt as to any one of these elements, then it will be your duty to return a verdict of not guilty.

The information provided is for your review not legal advice.
 
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G20-IWB24/7

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
886
Location
Tacoma, WA, ,
I think the cops would think "If I'm confronting a burglar in the middle of the night, I'm going to have my gun drawn too."

It's a reasonable use of force, in my opinion. Confronting a known felon in the middle of the night? I will absolutely point my gun at him. Easy to demonstrate that it's reasonable: Every cop called to the stand will testify that he would do the same thing.

Remember: reasonableness is the test when evaluating use of force.

You would never go to court over pointing a gun at a burglar, at least not in Washington. It happens every once in a while; we read about it in the paper.

Exactly.

I drew my gun on someone attempting to steal property in April of this year, in the parking lot behind my office, while my boss (owner of the company) was 4-5 feet behind me.

I did not get fired.
I did not get arrested.
I did have the detective congratulate me on 'informing' a criminal what they might encounter.
I did not fire as the bad guy fled the scene.
I wouldn't have done anything different, given the same situation again.

The criminal got a brown stain in his pants and a damn good warning of what can happen if he chooses to stay in his line of work. I'm really failing to see the negative here...
 

USMC1911

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
190
Location
Vancouver, Washington, USA
If the perp is fleeing, IE running AWAY from you, why shoot him ? The threat is leaving, no one left to cause you harm. The only reason I arm myself is to protect My Life, and the lives of My Loved Ones. The use of deadly force, in my eyes, is crystal clear,
1.
Deadly force is generally defined as physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury. In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents. Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.
2.
You may only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary in the situation.. This is judged by what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances. In a self-defense situation, it is only when the aggressor uses or attempts to use deadly force that you have the right to respond with deadly force.
Semper Fi
 

DoomGoober

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
63
Thanks for all of the replies. I was just trying to reconcile drawing with almost no intent to shoot.

From the replies, I guess drawing accomplishes a couple of things:
1) It keeps the criminal from becoming violent (hopefully).
2) It gives them a good scare.
3) If the criminal is stupid, he'll stick around out of the FEAR that I might shoot.

Thanks!
 

Luke

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
20
Location
Bellingham, Wa
I think it's a horrible idea to draw with no intent to fire. There are way too many things that could go wrong. He could draw his own weapon, or possibly disarm you and use your weapon against you, he could attack out of fear and you could accidentally shoot yourself during the struggle, he could have an armed accomplice that you aren't aware of. The bottom line is you don't know who you're dealing with, what he's capable of, or if he's armed. Tell your employer to invest in some surveillance equipment, it's most likely a current or former employee doing the stealing anyway.
 
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deanf

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
1,789
Location
N47º 12’ x W122º 10’
I think it's a horrible idea to draw with no intent to fire. There are way too many things that could go wrong. He could draw his own weapon, or possibly disarm you and use your weapon against you, he could attack out of fear and you could accidentally shoot yourself during the struggle, he could have an armed accomplice that you aren't aware of. The bottom line is you don't know who you're dealing with, what he's capable of, or if he's armed. Tell your employer to invest in some surveillance equipment, it's most likely a current or former employee doing the stealing anyway.

Right out of the Handgun Control Inc./Washington Cease Fire play book.
 

Hammer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Skagit Valley, Washington
Thanks for all of the replies. I was just trying to reconcile drawing with almost no intent to shoot.

From the replies, I guess drawing accomplishes a couple of things:
1) It keeps the criminal from becoming violent (hopefully).
2) It gives them a good scare.
3) If the criminal is stupid, he'll stick around out of the FEAR that I might shoot.

Thanks!

Do remember that if he is committing a felony (burglary, grand theft) you can command a citizen's arrest. If he doesn't bolt and show you his $hi++y drawers, tell him to lie on the ground face first, hands behind head, fingers twined together. Don't talk smack, but let him know you command the situation, and he'd better comply.
Whatever you do, don't get close enough to be grabbed, and keep your situational awareness. You don't know he's alone. As said above, if the thief runs, let 'im. He won't be back. That's been proven in prison interviews amany. Keep yourself safe. Tempting as it may be to reduce the world's # of scumbags by one, it is NOT worth the grief that would follow.
 
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