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Revolver advice

irish52084

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Puyallup< WA
I know pretty much nothing about revolvers, so help me out. I'm thinking of getting a 4inch 357 revolver for a car gun, but I'm not sure what models I should be looking at or how to tell if one is mechanically sound if I buy a used one. I saw a used S&W 686 stainless going for $475 and thought it was a reasonable price, am I correct?

So I guess my questions are these:
What models of 4 inch 357 revolvers should I investigate?
What makes or models should I avoid?
How do I know a used revolver is in proper working order?
Assuming my price range is going to be less than $600, can I get a quality new revolver?

Anything I'm not thinking of feel free to add.
 

BobR

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West Plains, ,
A 686 is a fine gun, so is a Ruger Security Six or GP 100 for a truck gun. Taurus is basically a S&W clone.

Here is a check out procedure written by Jim March, a frequent contributor over at www.thefiringline.com . Print it out, take it with you and start checking out the wheel guns. Everybody should have 10 0r 12 wheelguns to round out their collection. :)

So you're buying a revolver. New, used, doesn't matter, you want a good one, right?

How do check one over without firing it, right at the dealer's counter or gun show table?

This is how. All of this works with DA or SA wheelguns..."close the action" on most DAs means swing the cylinder in, on SA types, close the loading gate, on breakopens, close 'em. UNLOADED.

WARNING: most of these tests require violation of the "finger off trigger" rule. Therefore, be extremely careful about safe muzzle direction and making sure the gun is unloaded ahead of time, PERSONALLY, as you begin handling it.

Note: bring a small flashlight, something small and concentrated. A Photon or similar high-powered LED light is perfect. You also want feeler gauges if you're not used to eyeballing cylinder gaps; at a minimum, bring a .002", .004" and .006".

Note2: no dry firing is required or desired at any point. It just pisses off the gun's current owner.

Cylinder play.

1) With the gun UNLOADED (check for yourself!), close the action.

2) Thumb the hammer back, and while pulling the trigger, gently lower the hammer all the way down while keeping the trigger back - and KEEP holding the trigger once the hammer is down. (You've now put the gun in "full lockup" - keep it there for this and most other tests.)

3) With the trigger still back all the way, check for cylinder wiggle. Front/back is particularly undesirable; a bit of side to side is OK but it's a bad thing if you can wiggle it one way, let go, and then spin it the other way a fraction of an inch and it stays there too. At the very least, it should "want" to stop in just one place (later, we'll see if that place is any good). The ultimate is a "welded to the frame" feeling.

Cylinder gap

4) Still holding the trigger at full lockup, look sideways through the barrel/cylinder gap. If you can get a credit card in there, that ain't good...velocity drops rapidly as the gap increases. Too tight isn't good either, because burnt powder crud will "fill the gap" and start making the cylinder spin funky. My personal .38snubbie is set at .002, usually considered the minimum...after about 40 shots at the range, I have to give the front of the cylinder a quick wipe so it spins free again. I consider that a reasonable tradeoff for the increased velocity because in a real fight, I ain't gonna crank 40 rounds out of a 5-shot snub .

If you're eyeballing it, you'll have to hold it up sideways against an overhead light source.

SAFETY WARNING: This step in particular is where you MUST watch your muzzle direction. Look, part of what's happening here is that you're convincing the seller you know your poop . It helps the haggling process. If you do anything unsafe, that impression comes completely unglued.

Timing

5) You really, REALLY want an unloaded gun for this one. This is where the light comes in. With the gun STILL held in full lockup, trigger back after lowering the hammer by thumb, you want to shine a light right into the area at the rear of the cylinder near the firing pin. You then look down the barrel . You're looking to make sure the cylinder bore lines up with the barrel. Check every cylinder - that means putting the gun in full lockup for each cylinder before lighting it up.

You're looking for the cylinder and barrel holes to line up perfectly, it's easy to eyeball if there's even a faint light source at the very rear of both bores. And with no rounds present, it's generally easy to get some light in past where the rims would be.

Bore

(We're finally done with that "full lockup" crap, so rest your trigger finger. )

6) Swing the cylinder open, or with most SAs pull the cylinder. Use the small flashlight to scope the bore out. This part's easy - you want to avoid pitting, worn-out rifling, bulges of any sort. You want more light on the subject than just what creeps in from the rear of the cylinder on the timing check.

You also want to check each cylinder bore, in this case with the light coming in from the FRONT of each hole, you looking in from the back where the primers would be. You're looking for wear at the "restrictions" at the front of each cylinder bore. That's the "forcing cone" area and it can wear rapidly with some Magnum loads. (Special thanks to Salvo below for this bit!)

Trigger

7) To test a trigger without dry-firing it, use a plastic pen in front of the hammer to "catch" it with the off hand, especially if it's a "firing pin on the hammer" type. Or see if the seller has any snap-caps, that's the best solution. Flat-faced hammers as found in transfer-bar guns (Ruger, etc) can be caught with the off-hand without too much pain .

SA triggers (or of course a DA with the hammer cocked) should feel "like a glass rod breaking". A tiny amount of take-up slack is tolerable, and is common on anything with a transfer bar or hammerblock safety.

DA triggers are subjective. Some people like a dead-smooth feel from beginning of stroke to the end, with no "warning" that it's about to fire. Others (myself included) actually prefer a slight "hitch" right at the end, so we know when it's about to go. With that sort of trigger, you can actually "hold it" right at the "about to fire" point and do a short light stroke from there that rivals an SA shot for accuracy. Takes a lot of practice though. Either way, you don't want "grinding" through the length of the stroke, and the final stack-up at the end (if any) shouldn't be overly pronounced.

Detecting Bad Gunsmithing:

8) OK, so it's got a rock-solid cylinder, a .002" or .003" gap, and the trigger feels great. Odds are vastly in favor of it being tuned after leaving the factory.

So was the gunsmith any good?

First, **** it, then grab the hammer and "wiggle it around" a bit. Not too hard, don't bang on it, but give it a bit of up/down, left/right and circular action with finger off trigger and WATCH your muzzle direction.

You don't want that hammer slipping off an overly polished sear. You REALLY don't want that . It can be fixed by installing factory parts but that'll take modest money (more for installation than hardware costs) and it'll be bigtime unsafe until you do.

The other thing that commonly goes wrong is somebody will trim the spring, especially coil springs. You can spot that if you pull the grip panels, see if the spring was trimmed with wire cutters. If they get too wild with it, you'll get ignition failures on harder primers. But the good news is, replacement factory or Wolf springs are cheap both to buy and have installed.

There's also the legal problems Ayoob frequently describes regarding light triggers. If that's a concern, you can either swap back to stock springs, or since you bought it used there's no way to prove you knew it was modified at all .

In perspective:

Timing (test #5) is very critical...if that's off, the gun may not even be safe to test-fire. And naturally, a crappy barrel means a relatively pricey fix.

Cylinder gap is particularly critical on short-barreled and/or marginal caliber guns. If you need every possible ounce of energy, a tight gap helps. Some factory gaps will run as high as .006"; Taurus considers .007" "still in spec" (sigh). You'll be hard-pressed to find any new pieces under .004" - probably because the makers realize some people don't clean 'em often (or very well) and might complain about the cylinder binding up if they sell 'em at .002".

The guns in a dealer's "used pile" are often of unknown origin, from estate sales or whatever. Dealers don't have time to check every piece, and often don't know their history. These tests, especially cyliner gap and play, can spot a gun that's been sent off for professional tuning...like my snubbie, the best $180 I ever spent .

As long as the gun is otherwise sound (no cracks, etc) a gunsmith can fix any of this. So these tests can help you pick a particularly good new specimen, or find a good used gun, or help haggle the price down on something that'll need a bit of work.

Hope this helps.

Jim

As far as revolver selection, it is just what you are comfortable with and are willing to pay.

bob
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
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18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
There is extensive information available on the web about how to evaluate the condition of a revolver before purchase.

You can check prices on websites, too. Also, you can skim the S & W forum.

Google is your friend.
 

tony d tiger

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
167
Location
, Washington, USA
Why a revolver?

I can think of two reasons:
1) reliability
2) brass containment :D

Nice write-up BobR - thanks for the timely advice!

@the OP - a S&W 686 is (as noted) a fine piece. At that price, I'd buy it after checking it out IAW Bob's advice.
Mostly, I check movement and forcing cone area for the cylinder, and look down the bore for pitting, then check trigger feel. Most S&W have had a very nice SA trigger, in my recent searches.

I know where there's a 629 at a decent price, new... ;) (4" .44 mag)
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
If you can get a S&W 686 4" .357 magnum that is nice and tight, in good condition go for it. It is a fine revolver. If you take good care of it and decide to sell it in the future you will find that it has retained much of it's value and you won't take a bath on the sale.

Yess there are others but the S&W is a good revolver. Fits most people's hand, usually have good trigger action (or can be tuned well by an expert) and will hold up well over many range sessions.

I used to have a 686 with a 6" bbl. A little long to carry but it had a great feel.
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
I can think of two reasons:
1) reliability
2) brass containment :D

Nice write-up BobR - thanks for the timely advice!

@the OP - a S&W 686 is (as noted) a fine piece. At that price, I'd buy it after checking it out IAW Bob's advice.
Mostly, I check movement and forcing cone area for the cylinder, and look down the bore for pitting, then check trigger feel. Most S&W have had a very nice SA trigger, in my recent searches.

I know where there's a 629 at a decent price, new... ;) (4" .44 mag)

Let me add one more. While not a common practice, a revolver can be shot from inside a pocket and not jam as easy as an automatic. Nothing like walking "through the valley of the shadow of death" with your hand on your J-frame carried inside your jacket pocket. You can fill in the rest of the scenario.

It is a little hard on the "wardrobe" though but probably acceptable considering the alternative.
 

joeroket

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Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,339
Location
Everett, Washington, USA
Let me add one more. While not a common practice, a revolver can be shot from inside a pocket and not jam as easy as an automatic. Nothing like walking "through the valley of the shadow of death" with your hand on your J-frame carried inside your jacket pocket. You can fill in the rest of the scenario.

It is a little hard on the "wardrobe" though but probably acceptable considering the alternative.

A hammerless one works real well for this situation.

I actually like Taurus revolvers. They are made very well and are less expensive than a S&W. I have a Taurus 82 heavy barrel and picked it up a few years back for just over $150.
 

amlevin

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A hammerless one works real well for this situation.

I actually like Taurus revolvers. They are made very well and are less expensive than a S&W. I have a Taurus 82 heavy barrel and picked it up a few years back for just over $150.

Taurus makes some real fine handguns. One does need to beware of any of their products made between 1970 and 1974. They were controlled by the same "Group" that screwed up S&W during that period. Since 1980 they have been a source of "Improved Beretta's) under their name.

Only thing I have noticed about Taurus and the Rossi pistols they make is the attention to fine details. Lots of machine marks still present on "polished" parts. They do work great though and prices are OK too.
 

Batousaii

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Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
Check out the Rugers ?

I am a big fan of the Ruger GP/SP Series. Rock Solid mechanics, well balanced sturdy firearm. Stainless Steel makes them easy to maintain and pretty too. They can also handle the strongest of loads.
 

irish52084

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Puyallup< WA
BobR, thank you for the information on checking out used revolvers. That info was exactly what I was hoping to find.


The reason I'm looking at a revolver for a car/truck gun is due to reliability of magazine springs in a semi-auto. Revolvers are unaffected by being kept ready to fire, where as magazine springs fatigue at a quicker rate.

I have a friend with a stainless ruger gp100, I think that's the model. It's a 6 inch model and I was really impressed with it's quality and accuracy. I'll keep my eyes open for a good deal.
 

amlevin

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The reason I'm looking at a revolver for a car/truck gun is due to reliability of magazine springs in a semi-auto. Revolvers are unaffected by being kept ready to fire, where as magazine springs fatigue at a quicker rate.
This is an overrated myth that springs fatigue at a quicker rate when magazines are kept loaded.

Fatigue is caused by repeated flexing. If a piece of metal is bent less than it's elastic limit it will not loose it's elasticity anytime in several human lifetimes.

I have had magazines loaded for over 30 years that I finally got around to "shooting to empty them". Absolutly no issues at all. Unless the mags are allowed to get wet and rust they'll be just fine.

BTW, Revolvers have springs too.
 

tony d tiger

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Location
, Washington, USA
This is an overrated myth that springs fatigue at a quicker rate when magazines are kept loaded.

Fatigue is caused by repeated flexing. If a piece of metal is bent less than it's elastic limit it will not loose it's elasticity anytime in several human lifetimes.

I have had magazines loaded for over 30 years that I finally got around to "shooting to empty them". Absolutly no issues at all. Unless the mags are allowed to get wet and rust they'll be just fine.

BTW, Revolvers have springs too.
Concur. BTW (although I know your comment wasn't directed @ me) when I said reliability, I was referring to the action. Many semi-auto's are also reliable, but with a greater possibility of failure (fail to feed, fail to extract/eject) so they can be more "finicky" to to the interaction of many functions. Revolvers fail too - but nowhere's near as much chance of it happening.

Good luck OP - plenty of 4" .357's around!
 

Batousaii

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Spring-n-auto's-n-revolvers too...

I have a CZ-74B that i have had for something close to 20 years. I have shoti... and shot it... and shot it... For long lengths (sometimes a couple years) the mags would remain loaded wit the same ammo. And always, it would fire and cycle smoothly. It wasn't until i got some really (i mean uber) cheap walmart ammo that it had a short period jams. I changed out the ammo, and wallah! reliable again. It was the only ammo it doesn't like, it eats everything else with glee. I recently changed out all the springs with wolf springs, it cost me around 30 buck to change all of them, mags included with slightly better spring rates. Results? Now even smoother and.. well... I'd say more reliable, but it was never "not reliable". So Springs tend to last a long time if they are good quality.
- For revolvers, i too rather agree that if i was going to toss a gun in a tool box (so to speak) and forget about it, then a SS Revolver would probably be my choice. Not because of springs, but because of grunge, funk, lint, dust-n-oils, dirt and other grime that tends to float around in a work environment. Revolvers are inherently more reliable when subjected to these conditions. To end, i have seen revolvers fail, lock up (jam) or break parts. It does happen, guns in and of them selves are nothing less than little machines, and if not kept to some semblance of operable conditions... will fail... and at the worst time possible.

:cool: Bat
 

G20-IWB24/7

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A 4" 357 will serve you well. Especially for what you want it to do.

Then again, I've never had a malfunction in a Glock, and they tend to carry 2-3 times the ammunition. Keeping mags loaded does nothing to the springs. A couple of 'beater' G17's are a wonderful thing to have around the house... :)
 

irish52084

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The loading and unloading of a magazine will reduce the reliability of a magazine more quickly. To say that leaving a magazine loaded for long periods of time will not affect the performance of the spring is a bit ridiculous if I 'm to be honest. Any spring kept under constant tension can begin to form a "memory" and lose it's ability to exert the proper force necessary to reliably feed new rounds. The probability of a spring being made that is flawed and therefore more likely to fail then an opposing system that doesn't rely on a spring is what I'm actually concerned with. Introducing an extra component to the machine to perform essentially the same desired action increases the chances of a failure.
I realize the probability of a quality modern magazine failing me in the situation I want to keep it in is very low, however, it is a risk I'd prefer not to take. Simplicity of the system is what I'm after here, no machine is 100% reliable and I fully understand this.
 
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TechnoWeenie

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Let me add one more. While not a common practice, a revolver can be shot from inside a pocket and not jam as easy as an automatic. Nothing like walking "through the valley of the shadow of death" with your hand on your J-frame carried inside your jacket pocket. You can fill in the rest of the scenario.

It is a little hard on the "wardrobe" though but probably acceptable considering the alternative.



Good call. Didn't think of that.
 

CoupeDevil

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Feb 11, 2010
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Northgate/Seattle, Washington, USA
After carrying a 4 inch barrel revolver for a while, i'm thinking about a Ruger sp101.
Shot a S&W airweight .38 snub this weekend, hammer-less, and it was awesome. I also tried out the coat-pocket feel (Dickies mechanics jacket) and it fit perfectly. Might be my next purchase.
Then again, got to play with the S&W 460 snub. Its like a freakin' clown gun, 900 bucks!

There are some videos that can help too with what to look for. This one is short, but to the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xjoUmWQKgE&feature=related

Good luck, and let us know what you decide on. Especially if you pass on the S&W.
 

amlevin

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The loading and unloading of a magazine will reduce the reliability of a magazine more quickly. To say that leaving a magazine loaded for long periods of time will not affect the performance of the spring is a bit ridiculous if I 'm to be honest. Any spring kept under constant tension can begin to form a "memory" and lose it's ability to exert the proper force necessary to reliably feed new rounds. .

Using this logic we should all be jacking up our cars and leaving them on blocks when we aren't using them. After all, aren't they loaded all the time?

Again, if the limit of elasticity (modulus) has not been exceeded there will be no damage to the spring. The effect you describe migh occur but you will never live long enough to see it. It will take many, many, years before any loss of spring pressure occurs.

Dirty magazines cause far more malfunctions than springs in magazines left loaded.
 
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Kryteon

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Aug 18, 2009
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Location
Gig Harbor, Washington, USA
I see you're in Puyallup. Go to the Marksman indoor range. They have plenty of guns to rent for $ 10.00. I personally like the Ruger LCR 38 Spl. although I haven't bought one yet, (they now make a 357 version), I did rent one and liked the way it performed.

That way you can test fire and inspect guns that have had lots of rounds thru them and see how they hold up. Run the tests mentioned above and chose what you like.

The Marksman has gotten some bad reviews in the distant past, but I'm there at least twice a month shooting my reloads, and I have no complaints. Their prices are fair, the people are knowledgeable, and they have most everything I need all in one place.

Good luck
 
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