Mormon Bishop shot and killed at Church (California)

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12203700
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...-shot-in-California-chapel-gunman-killed.html
"The man shot Sannar in the foot then pulled him into the foyer, where he shot him in the face..."

This sort of tragedy always makes me think. Although I abide by the Church's (and any private property owner's decision) to request that law abiding citizens not bring guns, I really don't like it.

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Related to LDS Church gun policy, I went to an LDS owned camp (Heber Valley Camp) over this last weekend and at the checkin gate, they handed me a paper showing all the rules. The camp host warned me about black bears being spotted in the area and then in the very next sentence asked me if I had any guns. In my mind, I thought "How sensible, they want to make sure I can protect myself". I told him, "Yes, I've got my .45 with me." At which point he informed me no guns were allowed and I was required to leave it in their vault.

I asked what other options I had (never hurts to ask), and surprisingly he said that I could keep it locked in my car if I had a CCW and was willing to come into his office and fill out some paperwork. They recorded the make/model/SN of my gun as well as the CCW permit number.

The park host later complained about where I had parked my car (*right* next to the cabin where I was sleeping; not in the designated parking area). However, in the end he agreed I could leave it there...

Hate Crime ?

This is a sad and tragic occurence. I have to wonder due to the circumstances if this guy wasn't just out to kill a church member. This is particularly disturbing to me as my son is serving in a foreign mission where robberies are common and sometimes by armed men.

leeland said:

This sort of tragedy always makes me think. Although I abide by the Church's (and any private property owner's decision) to request that law abiding citizens not bring guns, I really don't like it.

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I note that so far as I know, the LDS Church policy banning guns from their buildings applies only in Utah. I have relatives living outside Utah and there has never been any kind of announcement or even private letter to local leaders on the matter.

Even here in Utah, while carrying a gun INTO a "house of worship" or private residence in contradiction of proper notice that guns are not welcome is a crime, there is no crime for carrying a gun into other privately declared "gun free zones" including outdoor property, businesses, etc. You can, of course, be asked to leave if you violate private policies. And I think it generally good manners not to deliberately violate private policies when a guest on others' property. So I certainly avoid OCing in such locations. But I don't travel on foot, unarmed, in bear (or big cat) country.

It will be interesting to see what possible motives evolve for this murder in the Cali LDS church. I find it frustrating that almost any crime or even slight against racial or sexual minorities will be immediately investigated as a potential "hate crime." But thus far, I've not seen a single media outlet or police agency even mentioning that possibility here. Given the various crimes committed against the LDS and other conservative churches and members of those churches during and following the Prop 8 campaign, it strikes me as a little inequitable not to consider the possibility that this may have been a bias crime related to political differences of opinion.

Charles

leeland said:

I asked what other options I had (never hurts to ask), and surprisingly he said that I could keep it locked in my car if I had a CCW and was willing to come into his office and fill out some paperwork. They recorded the make/model/SN of my gun as well as the CCW permit number.

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WHY???? Why do you feel the need to tell a private party that you are armed? Why did you feel the need to give them your firearm info? Stupid stupid stupid. Yes that is harsh but true.

This sort of tragedy always makes me think. Although I abide by the Church's (and any private property owner's decision) to request that law abiding citizens not bring guns, I really don't like it.

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Carrying a firearm is generally a distraction to you (the member) or to the congregation, depending on whether you are open carrying or not (I don't like the idea of either at church). When you are at church, 110% of your focus should be there. For only 3 hours out of the week, even the most paranoid gun nut should keep his piece in his car. Maybe there should be a nice little compact semi-auto, or even a Taser in every Bishop's office. I don't know how the Church will react to this, but more than likely they will keep the same policies.

This isn't something that is common in Utah, or even California. It is terribly unfortunate and those involved will be in my prayers.

Vegassteve said:

WHY???? Why do you feel the need to tell a private party that you are armed? Why did you feel the need to give them your firearm info? Stupid stupid stupid. Yes that is harsh but true.

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I did not volunteer the information. They specifically asked me is I had a firearm. I am an honest person, so the only real answer I could give was YES.

I gave them my firearm info because they had (as private property owners) set in place a procedure that required the info if I wanted to retain my weapon. I felt that the info they requested in no way harmed me (other than the nuisance of filling out the stupid form).

utbagpiper said:

...But I don't travel on foot, unarmed, in bear (or big cat) country...
Charles

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Neither do I. The camp featured many hiking trails, but my son and I chose to leave early the next morning and do our hiking elsewhere.

Interestingly, in the spirit of "taking my money elsewhere", I have now taken on the planning for the next year's Father's & Sons camp. The place I have in mind wont officially confirm my reservation until Jan 1, but they have a private range and are VERY gun friendly. My plan is to take a dozen or so suppressed .22 pistols with me and have a fun shooting activity with the group.

Not much we can do

In this case, a concealed carry weapons permit holder would not have been able to save the victim.

sg_pilot said:

Carrying a firearm is generally a distraction to you (the member) or to the congregation, ...

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Although I would not OC at church, I do not believe that it would be a distraction to me personally to CC. I have carried a gun daily for many years now, and do not find it a disruption to my every day focus.

I do consider my church meetings one of the lowest risk places that I spend any significant amount of time at, but the risk clearly is not zero. If the current reporting is to be believed, the victim in this case was first shot in the foot while in his office, then the perpetrator dragged him into the hallway and put a round in his face. That means that there was a decent amount of time between the first big bang, and the actual fatal shot. That is time where someone may have been able to intercede if they were capable of doing so.

sg_pilot said:

Carrying a firearm is generally a distraction to you (the member) or to the congregation, depending on whether you are open carrying or not (I don't like the idea of either at church). When you are at church, 110% of your focus should be there. For only 3 hours out of the week, even the most paranoid gun nut should keep his piece in his car.

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Let me start by stating that as a matter of both obedience to the laws of Utah as well as religious faith in actually sustaining those that I raised my hand to sustain as LDS Church leaders, I do not carry in church. I trust that my faith will either put me in a position to receive revelation if ever I should not attend church due to impending criminal violence, or to accept God's will if violence befalls me while I am unarmed.

That said, I do not find my gun to be the least distracting. In many cases, the biggest risk I face with my gun is forgetting I am carrying it and attempting to enter some off limits location. My daily carry piece is no more distracting to me than my billfold, pen, belt, or any other item of regular clothing or accessory.

I attend church with a couple of LEOs who are legally allowed to carry at church. I've seen at least one print through his suit coat. I'll bet no one else even noticed it, but I was actually looking for it to see if he did carry at church. It doesn't appear to be a distraction to him or anyone else that his is discretely carrying.

That all said, if it would be a distraction to you, then I guess the current law and policy are a great blessing to you. I know there are those for whom a cell phone is a distraction. I know others who can turn off the ringer and use their ipods or other smart phones as amazing study and reading resources during class discussion.

In Utah it is a moot point as the law has made the decision for us.

But I really wish I could carry in church, not so much because I feel a burning need to do so. Rather, because I find it annoying to have to plan what to do with my firearm when I go to the church, especially during the week. I can easily walk to our building and often do. But that then precludes even storing the gun in the car and I have to remember to disarm before ever leaving home.

Charles

Pepper Spray took down a guy with a bomb @ BYU

I just read about the time a guy at BYU said he had a bomb but he didn't. President Hunter (not yet President of the LDS Church) was told to read a letter or he (bad guy) was going to blow up the place. The LDS Security guys (2 of them) just stood there.
The crowd began to sing church songs which distracted the bomber, then a lay member (student at BYU) ran the stage and with some pepper spray got the guy right in the face, then the Security guys and others held him down until the police came.
So, knives and pepper are not guns but I carry my PS & knive to church with me, in case something should happen, and my gun in my car. I also think the church should teach everyone to throw a book at who ever is shooting up the place, then others can jump on the guy when he is getting hit up side the head with Bibles and Book of Mormons, or Hymm books, having 200 books flying at you from all directions has to do some damage, I don't care what kind of gun you have!
With that said, I still feel that a few armed and trained assisgned members should always carry with them. (A calling if you will) We call Brother Porter Rockwell to stand guard of this meeting house, now that's a serious calling.

leeland said:

I did not volunteer the information. They specifically asked me is I had a firearm. I am an honest person, so the only real answer I could give was YES.

I gave them my firearm info because they had (as private property owners) set in place a procedure that required the info if I wanted to retain my weapon. I felt that the info they requested in no way harmed me (other than the nuisance of filling out the stupid form).

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The harm is now you are in someones files. What will they do with that info? Maybe nothing but who really knows. And if you really cared about being armed then you would have not told the truth. You are a sheep. The harm is people like you doing what you did, keep the firearm stigma alive and well.

If there was no law keeping you from being armed you are a sheep. If the place you are going keeps you from being armed by law then dont lie but my safety in a cabin or hotel room trumps someones feel goods.

They have no right or reason to take down any of the info they took.

Vegassteve said:

The harm is now you are in someones files. What will they do with that info? Maybe nothing but who really knows.

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No permanent record was kept. I requested and took the paper when I left the camp at checkout more or less out of habit (I do my best not to "leave a paper trail" when possible).

Vegassteve said:

And if you really cared about being armed then you would have not told the truth.

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Apparently I value my honesty more than you do. Just out of curiosity, would you also advise a prohibited person to "just lie" on their Form 4473 when purchasing a firearm so that they can be armed?

Vegassteve said:

You are a sheep. The harm is people like you doing what you did, keep the firearm stigma alive and well.

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I didn't take any offense at this statement because I realize you don't really know me, but just for the record, when I showed this statement to all my co-workers, it got a nice round of laughter. General consensus of those who DO know me is I am the LEAST "sheep like" person they have EVER met. I am law abiding, but CONSTANTLY challenge any and all rules, laws, etc that I feel are unfair, stupid, unnecessary... A good example is the fact that many of the head TSA agents / airport security folks at the dozen airports I most commonly frequent know me by name because of my constant challenges to their procedures. Join me on a flight sometime with checked weapons, NO ID, a big water bottle labeled "hydration medication", and a custom shirt that reads "Suspected Terrorist" with a picture of a big bomb.... Seriously, your sheep comment put big smiles on everyone's face.

Vegassteve said:

If there was no law keeping you from being armed you are a sheep.
They have no right or reason to take down any of the info they took.

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As private property owners, they made it clear to me that if I did not provide the info, then I was not welcome on their property. I chose to provide the info and still see no harm in this case (but thanks for being offended on my behalf)

leeland said:

No permanent record was kept. I requested and took the paper when I left the camp at checkout more or less out of habit (I do my best not to "leave a paper trail" when possible).



Apparently I value my honesty more than you do. Just out of curiosity, would you also advise a prohibited person to "just lie" on their Form 4473 when purchasing a firearm so that they can be armed?





As private property owners, they made it clear to me that if I did not provide the info, then I was not welcome on their property. I chose to provide the info and still see no harm in this case (but thanks for being offended on my behalf)

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Oh you got the paper back. That makes it all better, a good thing no one invented a copy machine yet.


Did you even read my post? I stated that as long as one was doing nothing against he law then no one need know anything. If it is a against the law then honest is the way to go. As far as me going on someones personal property if I am CC then no one need know.

And you missed the point of the sheeple remark. By agreeing to provide info to a pvt party that they do not need to know or have you caved. You caved to the fear they had that guns are bad, that if you give them the info all is well. If you leave it in the car all is well. Allis well alright for everyone but you as you gave up your rights. If a pvt prop owner does not see it then they dont need to know about it. If its not against the law to carry someplace then do it.

You are a sheep. I stand by it.

Vegassteve said:

Did you even read my post? I stated that as long as one was doing nothing against he law then no one need know anything.

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No, I was accurate when I quoted you. You said precisely: "And if you really cared about being armed then you would have not told the truth."

This statement surprised me enough that I asked you a followup question which you ignored. I'm still curious; given your "people who really care about being armed should just lie" statement, would you advise a felon to just lie on his forms so he can buy a gun? Maybe stealing a gun would be OK as well (if he really cared about being armed)?

Vegassteve said:

And you missed the point of the sheeple remark. By agreeing to provide info to a pvt party that they do not need to know or have you caved.

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I guess you just have a different definition of "sheep" and "caved" than I do (which is certainly fine).
They asked me point blank if I had a weapon and I chose to respond honestly. Was it any of their business if I had a weapon? Well, that's another debate entirely... They told me I had to leave the weapon with them and I told them I wasn't willing to do that and asked what alternatives existed. Bottom line was I was faced with choosing between walking away and choosing to provide the info they requested and staying. Your accusation implies that I was free to choose what info I would provide but that was not the case. I weighted and mitigated the risks (e.g. keeping my gun as near as possible, avoiding hiking, etc.) and ultimately judged the rewards (spending the night camping with my son and not wasting a 3 hour drive) to be greater.

While I am a strong advocate for RKBA and OC on a daily basis, I am not fanatical to the degree that I put this agenda above all others. Perhaps you have a different set of values and correspondingly different set of actions. Your use of "caved" and "sheep" certainly seem intended to convey a sense of disapproval for my willingness to compromise.

I was once shooting on private property with a friend in a completely legal and safe fashion and had a police officer pull up right behind us. He jumped out of his vehicle, positioned himself behind his car door, drew his weapon and pointed in directly at me. He demanded that I immediately drop my weapon or he would shoot. I PROMPTLY DID exactly as he requested. Did I cave and sheepishly obey? I guess by your definitions, yes. Would you have done otherwise arguing about how you had every right to hold your weapon and how you were on private property? Perhaps. Do you look down on me for compromising my principles. Perhaps. Whatever... To each their own...

Vegassteve said:

I stated that as long as one was doing nothing against he law then no one need know anything. If it is a against the law then honest is the way to go. As far as me going on someones personal property if I am CC then no one need know.

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I do on occasion CC even in locations where I suspect the property owner would request I leave if they were aware that I had a gun. This is rare as I OC basically all the time. However, this is all irrelevant as they asked me if I had a weapon. I chose to tell them I had a gun. Sounds like you would have chosen to do otherwise. Whatever.. I guess we are different.

For what it's worth, I also agree that their premise that things are somehow better if they have my info on a sheet of paper is weak at best. In an attempt to understand their reasoning better, I called and asked for more info about when/why the policy was enacted. From what I was told, last year a bunch of girls were camping and a badger was raiding their food. I guy that was there whipped out his pistol and blasted it. I bunch of 14yr old girls were "traumatized" to see this thing reduced to giblets right in front of them and parents were concerned about the safety of their children. Complaints pushed up stream and a policy came flowing back down. I don't have enough details to really know if the guy with the gun behaved unsafely or irresponsibly. I was told the policy was to limit liability.

Vegassteve said:

You are a sheep. I stand by it.

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Baaaaaa.

Foolishness

sg_pilot said:

Carrying a firearm is generally a distraction to you (the member) or to the congregation, depending on whether you are open carrying or not (I don't like the idea of either at church). When you are at church, 110% of your focus should be there. For only 3 hours out of the week, even the most paranoid gun nut should keep his piece in his car. Maybe there should be a nice little compact semi-auto, or even a Taser in every Bishop's office. I don't know how the Church will react to this, but more than likely they will keep the same policies.

This isn't something that is common in Utah, or even California. It is terribly unfortunate and those involved will be in my prayers.

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Protecting family is a responsibility I do not shirk for any reason. None at all. With all the violence against churches in recent years, being unarmed is an incredibly stupid thing to do on Sunday.

Further, God helps those who help themselves. It's like the old parable of the man who was drowning in the ocean and praying to God for help and turned down rescuers in a boat and a helicopter, telling them he was waiting for God to save him. He drowns and asks God why he didn't save him. "I sent a boat and a helicopter!"

God inspired the Browning family to invent the means of our protection. Any who would go without that protection so they can chastise the rest of us or feel more holy forfeits any other divine protection that might otherwise be available.

As for law of the land, there are limits on our expected obedience to the law of the land. D&C 98:4-5 spells it out very clearly. When the law no longer protects our rights and privileges it's no longer justifiable before God.

I'll never live in Utah. You apostates have screwed things up pretty bad. It's a shame that people who claim to believe the principles enshrined in the Constitution were inspired stoop to the lows that Utah has.

There are plenty of Mormons in Arizona and we don't have all this anti-gun crap going on down here, even in counties where we make up a majority.

I'm sorry if I offended anybody, I just feel really strongly about this. I'm done reproofing with sharpness. Love you all. I'd sit down and have a root beer (no caffeine) with any of you any time

DustoneGT said:

Protecting family is a responsibility I do not shirk for any reason. None at all. ...snip...
As for law of the land, there are limits on our expected obedience to the law of the land. D&C 98:4-5 spells it out very clearly. When the law no longer protects our rights and privileges it's no longer justifiable before God....snip...

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This thread has spun in directions I had not intended...

My personal feelings seem to often mirror those of Charles--who's comments I've found both thoughtful and articulate--and who also posted on this thread. You seem to be religious (quoting scripture), but you simultaneously seem to suggest that a gun is the only way to protect one's family. Do you not believe in personal revelation and that a person can be kept from harm by such promptings (which is what I understood Charles to be saying)?


I *really* hesitate to refer to scripture on this forum, but since you gave a reference (which I found quite interesting), perhaps we look just a few verses further in that same section. Based on your reference, I assume you're saying that the Utah law which allows the Church's to prohibit firearms is unconstitutional and should therefore be ignored. Given the language in verse 7, do you personally consider the LDS Church to be doing evil?. How do you reconcile all the references to obedience with the idea of ignoring the Church's stance on carry within their buildings?
Frankly, I'm curious how you interpret verse 13 and 14: "And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal. Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies..."

Charles made it clear that within his value system, there are times when he would personally rather die in obedience than disobey. Given the phrases "foolishness" and "incredibly stupid thing to do" in your post and your affirmation that "Protecting family is a responsibility I do not shirk for any reason. None at all.", I assume you feel otherwise. Did I understand correctly that within your value system, you value having your gun (which you appear to consider an absolutely essential tool to protect your family) more than obedience to this law and the desires of the Church?

I certainly didn't take any offense at your comments, but I must confess that your statements combined with at least my understanding of scripture gives rise to logical contradictions (some of which I highlighted above). All in all, you do sound like the kind of person I would enjoy talking with. If you're ever in town, I'll take you up on the root-beer.

Vegassteve said:

You are a sheep. I stand by it.

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He is the strangest looking sheep I've ever seen.

Nice shoes. Are those the "5 fingers"? Man I wish they made those in my size.

Thoughts and prayers are with the Bishops family...

We should never forget that a respected family man was gunned down senselessly here. This will have long term effects on his family, and children, that we can't even imagine. I'd suggest we all keep this family in our prayers tonight.

Regarding this thread... I always carry a gun to church (and church functions). It has never been an issue, and as far as I know nobody has a clue. Its legal for me, and my gun has never been a distraction.

It gets especially dangerous when you have to decide what to do with your firearm when entering places that are "off limits". Especially if you have kids. Do I leave the gun in the car where it can be stolen, or I could forget about it and my kids find it? I'd much rather have my gun either (1) on my side, or (2) locked safely away.