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  1. #1
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    Question Confused...

    I have been reading for awhile and one thing I am not clear on.
    And yes, I have read (and re-read the OC Pocket Cards) and those helped to clear up some other questions I had but not this one...

    I have my CPL, can I CC while in a place with a liquor license or do I HAVE to OC?
    AND... would this include Meijers, Walmart, Costco and/or Party Stores either just one or a combination of the previously mentioned?
    And lastly, does "liquor license" include beer and wine or just (hard) liquor (eg, scotch, whiskey, moonshine, etc)?

    Thanks.

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    You can CC with CPL until the business makes most of its money through alcohol sales. When in doubt just OC. Heck, why would you ever CC?

    If they sell alcohol, they have to have a license.

    You can CC or OC at meijers or costco for instance, but must OC at a full out bar.

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    Of course if you had no CPL, you cant even carry on the property of any business that has any license to sell alcohol.

    where are my manners, Welcome to the forum!
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-30-2010 at 01:26 AM.

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    Welcome to the forum!

    As stainless1911 pointed out:

    With a CPL:
    You can OC or CC in places like Meijer, Kroger, 7-11, Red Robin, Apple Bees, etc...
    You can OC in places like bars or taverns (any place that earns a majority of its income from the sale of alcohol by the glass to be consumed on the premise).
    If in doubt, open carry.

    If they sell alcohol, they must have a license.

  5. #5
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    There should be some clarification too: a party store's primary income is alcohol. It is not alcohol by the GLASS. Therefore you can CC at a party store. The key wording here is by the glass. Liquor stores sell liquor by the bottle.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member Slave's Avatar
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    don't forget, it's alcohol sold by the glass, to be consumed on the premesis, and 51% of the income MUST come from alcohol sold by the glass to be consumed on the premesis.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Are you sure it's 51%?

    I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

    say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

    you make:

    42% Alcohol
    16% food
    2% shoe rental
    40% bowling


    You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)
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    dr todd some time ago found a cite that indicates that only buildings or areas where alcohol is sold according to the lcc are considered "premises" not the parking areas, even if you do not have a cpl.

    as the above posters stated, with cpl you can carry cc or oc at places that have a liquor license. As a cpl holder, you are required to oc if they make the majority of income from alcohol by the glass to be consumed on premises. ie: a bar.

    here is why: according ot 750.234d prohibits firearm possession on certain premises. however, this section does not apply to cpl holders. You can open carry in all of the places listed in 234d with the exception of a court.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    ...(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    then the concealed carry law, 28.425o lists the places you may not carry concealed.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    .......

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-30-2010 at 09:59 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinityplusone View Post
    I have been reading for awhile and one thing I am not clear on.
    And yes, I have read (and re-read the OC Pocket Cards) and those helped to clear up some other questions I had but not this one...
    To summarize the above input for you, and give you yes/no answers:

    Quote Originally Posted by infinityplusone View Post
    I have my CPL, can I CC while in a place with a liquor license or do I HAVE to OC?
    --If the place's primary source of income (i.e., the income source of greatest amount) is sale of alcohol by the glass -- NO, you cannot CC, but you may OC.
    --If the place's primary source of income is NOT sale of alcohol by the glass -- YES, you may CC.


    Quote Originally Posted by infinityplusone View Post
    AND... would this include Meijers, Walmart, Costco and/or Party Stores either just one or a combination of the previously mentioned?
    YES, you may CC in those places because their primary source of income is NOT sale of alcohol by the glass.

    Quote Originally Posted by infinityplusone View Post
    And lastly, does "liquor license" include beer and wine or just (hard) liquor (eg, scotch, whiskey, moonshine, etc)?
    YES. Any place that sells any form of alcoholic beverage (legally) is near-certainly "liquor licensed".

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    Thanks!

    Thank you all for the explanation and details, they were very helpful.

    And thank you for the welcome.
    I am still getting use to CC'ing, OC will come in due time.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Of course if you had no CPL, you cant even carry on the property of any business that has any license to sell alcohol.
    wait, just to throw a wrench into the works... what if you are the property and business owner of a business licensed to sell (ie: party store) and you don't have a cpl?

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    Then you have permission from the owner, (you).

  13. #13
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinityplusone View Post
    Thank you all for the explanation and details, they were very helpful.

    And thank you for the welcome.
    I am still getting use to CC'ing, OC will come in due time.
    Welcome to OCDO! When I OC'ed the first time, it felt very strange (just like anything else new). Now, it feels strange NOT to OC.

    I once saw a sign at the top of a mountain I climbed: "The difference between tired feet and the enjoying the beautiful view in front of you is generally a condition of the mind."

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You can CC with CPL until the business makes most of its money through alcohol sales. When in doubt just OC. Heck, why would you ever CC?

    If they sell alcohol, they have to have a license.

    You can CC or OC at meijers or costco for instance, but must OC at a full out bar.
    This has nothing to do with how much money they make from alcohol sales. But rather whether you can CC has to do with whether they sell by the glass or just packaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slave View Post
    don't forget, it's alcohol sold by the glass, to be consumed on the premesis, and 51% of the income MUST come from alcohol sold by the glass to be consumed on the premesis.
    There is no such 51% clause in any MI law. But rather the law says.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....

    Primary source of income and 51% are two very different things.



    To sum up.

    IF you have a CPL you may CC or OC in any licensed establishment that sells packaged liquor.

    IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass wherein the sale of Liquor by the glass is the primary source of income.

    IF you do not have a CPL you may NOT be on the premises of the location that is licensed. (this includes all property - parking lots grass everything)

    NOTE while the liquor law specifies premises as the building. 750.234d does not and parking lots as well as all other property would be considered premises. Unfortunately we cannot take the definition from one law and use it in another. So as far as I can tell what Dr. Todd found is interesting but of little use.

    Edited to add missing info.
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 08-30-2010 at 09:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Are you sure it's 51%?

    I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

    say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

    you make:

    42% Alcohol
    16% food
    2% shoe rental
    40% bowling


    You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)
    Correct...majority means the most, not necessarily 51%.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass.
    You quoted the correct law, then summarized it improperly. With a CPL, you CAN CC at restaurants like Applebees, Logans Steak house, BW3's, ect. because, although they DO sell liquor by the glass, it IS NOT the primary source of income. Food is.
    Last edited by scot623; 08-30-2010 at 08:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    You quoted the correct law, then summarized it improperly. With a CPL, you CAN CC at restaurants like Applebees, Logans Steak house, BW3's, ect. because, although they DO sell liquor by the glass, it IS NOT the primary source of income. Food is.
    Blast it I know that
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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  18. #18
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    Bottom line. Michigans laws are needlessly confusing, and this thread could not have a more appropriate title.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    This has nothing to do with how much money they make from alcohol sales. But rather whether you can CC has to do with whether they sell by the glass or just packaged.



    There is no such 51% clause in any MI law. But rather the law says.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....

    Primary source of income and 51% are two very different things.



    To sum up.

    IF you have a CPL you may CC or OC in any licensed establishment that sells packaged liquor.

    IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass wherein the sale of Liquor by the glass is the primary source of income.

    IF you do not have a CPL you may NOT be on the premises of the location that is licensed. (this includes all property - parking lots grass everything)

    NOTE while the liquor law specifies premises as the building. 750.234d does not and parking lots as well as all other property would be considered premises. Unfortunately we cannot take the definition from one law and use it in another. So as far as I can tell what Dr. Todd found is interesting but of little use.

    Edited to add missing info.
    I'm not so sure the "premises" issue is a settled fact so to say it is "of limited use" is your opinion, just as my opinion is that it is useful. Generally, you can't take the definition of one law and apply it to another BUT if one law is based upon another, I think it may be possible. There really is no sure way to know. The safest bet would be not to carry anywhere on the property that has a liquor license if you do not have a CPL.

    Since the OP does not have where in Michigan he lives listed and he states that he has a CPL, let's pretend someone reading this does not and let me use my county as an example. IF ONE DOES NOT HAVE A CPL: In Kent County, don't carry at some of the hotels, as they have liquor licenses. Forget about golf courses, too... most have liquor licenses. Banquet and conference centers, The Grand Rapids Art Museum, Schuler Books, Frederick Meijer Botanical Gardens, Grand Lady Riverboat Cruise, East Hills Athletic Club all are prohibited places without a CPL. So, even if it looks like a "safe" place, the only way to make sure is to check the DLEG website and see if they have a liquor license...
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    BTW... "primary" doesn't necessarily mean "majority" as malignity very wisely stated... the term itself is pretty much open to interpretation. So, if one wants to really be safe... it is best not to carry concealed with a CPL in any establishment licensed for consumption on the premises because, depending on what interpretation a LEO or judge wants to apply to your case, any one of us could be breaking the law. Also don't think that by OCing w/ a CPL you are going to be safe either... BTW, has anyone heard anything regarding that case in Lansing??
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    Are you sure it's 51%?

    I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

    say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

    you make:

    42% Alcohol
    16% food
    2% shoe rental
    40% bowling


    You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)
    What? The primary source of income in your example is STILL NOT alcohol. It's from several other sources. 16+2+40=58% so the primary source is NOT alcohol. While 51% is not mentioned it's implied. Of all the sources of income for a business, alcohol is either the majority or it isn't. Or am I missing something?
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  21. #21
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Hm..

    Point noted. Guess I didn't look at it that way Ven, and yeah, I suppose you're right. I think my own personal idiot light just came on.

    Touche'
    Last edited by malignity; 08-31-2010 at 09:43 AM.
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    Ven, your example makes sense only if there are 2 categories for income...alcohol or EVERYTHING else. Why can there not be 3 or 4 sources of income? Take Macy's for example. 1. Merchandise sales 2. Food(take with) sales 3. services(beauty salon, repairs, clothing alterations) 4. Restaurant food sales 5. Lastly, Alcohol by the glass for consumption. When adding up the stores "sources of income" it wouldn't make sense to have two columns(alcohol sales by the glass and Everything else!) You need all 5. The column with the high percentage (at least over 20% in this example) would be the primary source of income(merchandise sales).
    Last edited by scot623; 08-31-2010 at 10:41 AM.

  23. #23
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    One more example I think illustrates my point . You work 3 jobs...

    Full time stock boy Home depot $27,000 a year.
    Short order cook at Coney Island $18,000 a year.
    Pizza Delivery Guy $10,000 a year.

    Is your primary source of income some hybrid job, Coney Cook/Pizza Guy? How did you combine those 2 separate jobs into one? Even though you do make more income from those two jobs combined...I think it is clear to say your primary source of income is from Home Depot. No?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Ven, your example makes sense only if there are 2 categories for income...alcohol or EVERYTHING else. Why can there not be 3 or 4 sources of income? Take Macy's for example. 1. Merchandise sales 2. Food(take with) sales 3. services(beauty salon, repairs, clothing alterations) 4. Restaurant food sales 5. Lastly, Alcohol by the glass for consumption. When adding up the stores "sources of income" it wouldn't make sense to have two columns(alcohol sales by the glass and Everything else!) You need all 5. The column with the high percentage (at least over 20% in this example) would be the primary source of income(merchandise sales).
    That is primarily for record keeping. If one looks at the total sales for a business, one combines all sources. In this regard only sales from alcohol would be separated out as it is the determining fact whether or not a person violates the CC statute.

    I suppose one could look at it from other points of view depending on which side you are representing. But the fact remains the only information we have is what the statute says. In other words the question you need to ask is, of the businesses total sales what % is from alcohol by the glass?

    Again, it comes down to a jury trial if need be. The statute, I was told when it was written, was intentionally left to be ambiguous. I discussed this very topic with the drafter of the statute while it was being written years ago. I mentioned they needed to have some actual numbers in the statute to make it more clear. Oh well, so much for common sense.
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  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    One more example I think illustrates my point . You work 3 jobs...

    Full time stock boy Home depot $27,000 a year.
    Short order cook at Coney Island $18,000 a year.
    Pizza Delivery Guy $10,000 a year.

    Is your primary source of income some hybrid job, Coney Cook/Pizza Guy? How did you combine those 2 separate jobs into one? Even though you do make more income from those two jobs combined...I think it is clear to say your primary source of income is from Home Depot. No?
    Again it's not clear what the intent was.

    I'm not sure your analogy applies. One business can have lots of separate income from a variety of sales categories, but since alcohol is the only merchandise that we need to worry about then we compare the total sales of all merchandise and determine what percentage of that is from alcohol. If it's over 50% then it is also the primary source.

    Certainly that is how I would argue the issue if I was jammed up on this violation.
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