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Thread: I just got the new VCDL alert

  1. #1
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I just got the new VCDL alert

    I've been a member for years and this is the first email I've ever deleted.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I've been a member for years and this is the first email I've ever deleted.
    ...because your Inbox just now got full?

    ...or should I just say "Congrats" amongst your lack of context?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    ...because your Inbox just now got full?

    ...or should I just say "Congrats" amongst your lack of context?
    I figured anyone reading it would know the reason.

    Once again the articles acknowledge "Licensed Gun Carriers" as the only legal ones. When I get a little time this evening I'm going to let the Bank President in Chappell Hill know that his understanding of the Second Amendment is a little short of first base.

    And another thoughtful letter:
    I would like to know the Fair policy regarding the legal carry of firearms on the Fairgrounds property (concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit).





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    Mr. Napp take consolation! Licensed or unlicensed concealed carry is absolutely illegal in banking institutions in Chapel Hill, NC. This article, is not about the familiar city in NC, but it is about Chappell Hill, TX and a license is absolutely required to carry a handgun there. Now I don't agree that the requirement is right, but it is what it is and although unlicensed or licensed OC in the bank would be wonderful, I don't think it's doable under Texas state law.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 08-30-2010 at 01:47 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Mr. Napp take consolation! Licensed or unlicensed concealed carry is absolutely illegal in banking institutions in Chapel Hill, NC. This article, is not about the familiar city in NC, but it is about Chappell Hill, TX and a license is absolutely required to carry a handgun there. Now I don't agree that the requirement is right, but it is what it is and although unlicensed or licensed OC in the bank would be wonderful, I don't think it's doable under Texas state law.
    It's really not about the location Jmelvin, it's about the implication. It's like the State Fair Article. Granted, the State Fair hasn't been much of a State Fair for many years and I don't have any desire to go...but to have a VCDL member write them and say:

    I would like to know the Fair policy regarding the legal carry of firearms on the Fairgrounds property (concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit).

    And then have VCDL brag about it (especially on the day when we get the renewal forms for a batch of memberships I pay for), rubs me the wrong way.

    Even here, in what should be the motherland of OC, I hear this (read to the bottom).
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ld-County-Fair

    In a couple of months when I have my hands full with other things, I'll start getting supposedly "Pro Gun" emails about P4P bills, that say "We need to call our representatives and support this".

    My first thoughts will be like the Indians, "What's this we sh&t white man?"

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    I see what you're saying sir. It would have been nice to at least have an editor's clarifier after the "concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit" to note that open carry without a permit is generally a perfectly legal option as well so that readers are fully informed. Unfortunately the letter writer too is not complete in his description of the policy of the State Fair, in that he describes that the fair prohibits the otherwise lawful exercise of the a recognized right, but leaves out the fact that the State Fair organizers also prohibit the exercise of a licensed state privilege (which is what he asked about anyway).

    I sincerely hope the P4P bills drafted this year will be minimal and that the VCDL leadership makes it clear to bill drafters that their intent is to ensure that new laws aren't limited to those willing to pay for the privilege to carry concealed. Further a request for support should be sent, as necessary, asking that potential bill supporters make known their distaste for bills that do not include unlicensed open carry. I will be sure to make Senator Newman and Delegate Byron know my expectations regarding potential new firearm bills.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 08-30-2010 at 03:39 PM.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Well Peter you know how I feel. I thought it was obvious when I saw the VCDL "victory" cakes even though VCDL was completely routed on gun rights issues this year in the General Assembly.

    P4P is accepted as business as usual.

    P4P is fueled by the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2).

    Constitutional Carry is the fix.

    When we no longer fight for incremental P4P improvements gun owners can give full attention to gun rights, not P4P.

    I have unsubscribed from VCDL. They have been a more than I hope they understand the rift that they continue to forge.

    Keep your powder dry my friend and don't tangle with any of those bears.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Well Peter you know how I feel. I thought it was obvious when I saw the VCDL "victory" cakes even though VCDL was completely routed on gun rights issues this year in the General Assembly.

    P4P is accepted as business as usual.

    P4P is fueled by the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2).

    Constitutional Carry is the fix.

    When we no longer fight for incremental P4P improvements gun owners can give full attention to gun rights, not P4P.

    I have unsubscribed from VCDL. They have been a more than I hope they understand the rift that they continue to forge.

    Keep your powder dry my friend and don't tangle with any of those bears.

    Live Free or Die,
    Thundar
    What is this coded crap you keep spouting to whine about VCDL?

    Some gun owners cannot be happy with us working together... you've got to divide and conquer. Whether it's some on GlockTalk whining about those who chose to carry openly, or some of you on here whining about those who chose to carry concealed, some aren't happy unless they're attacking fellow gun owners.

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    Dr. Mark I don't think anyone in this thread has an issue with folks carrying concealed (I know I don't). The issue is pushing a legislative agenda that only seeks to make headway for those who buy the permit to conceal, while ignoring the Constitutionally protected right of OC.

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    Personally, I pay little attention to these minor points like "licensed is the only way".

    It seems to me that getting others to recognize or support rights is a matter of obtaining agreement from ambivalent or opposed people--both of who likely know little.

    It doesn't make sense to aim for too high a jump from one level of agreement to the next. If an ambivalent person won't accept OC, but will accept licensed carry, I'll take it. He'll come around with more educating.

    I think this is a bit of a tight-rope that Philip and the VCDL Board have to walk, too. If VCDL came down hard only for unlicensed possession and open carry of all weapons, even full auto, including schools, churches, courts, and....it would alienate supporters. How many? I don't know; but, I'll rely on Philip and the Board to get it right. I certainly can't change things alone, so I choose to ally myself with those who can. And, VCDL does have a track record of success.

    I just cannot see getting too upset because we have specialized knowledge or more opportunity to evaluate it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-30-2010 at 11:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    What is this coded crap you keep spouting to whine about VCDL?

    Some gun owners cannot be happy with us working together... you've got to divide and conquer. Whether it's some on GlockTalk whining about those who chose to carry openly, or some of you on here whining about those who chose to carry concealed, some aren't happy unless they're attacking fellow gun owners.
    Are we working together though?
    There were two statements I read today that really PO'ed me.

    The Gun Free Zone issue isn't an issue if you have a CHP, though. Chris and I both have one.
    The other was in the alert:

    I would like to know the Fair policy regarding the legal carry of firearms on the Fairgrounds property (concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit).



    That's NOT working together, it's being elite.

    I've said this so many times I need to come up with a shorthand version. There is nothing wrong with CHP's. I fought just as hard and a lot longer than most of you, to get shall issue.

    There is nothing wrong with people who choose to carry concealed. It's their choice and in many cases, a prudent choice.

    There IS something wrong with someone that feels that permission slip somehow trumps the right to OC in Va. Shall issue is a fairly recent thing and we were here a long time before it came to town.

    Considering hailstorm of criticism I hear about someone asking if a property is posted, I wonder why I don't hear a peep about a VCDL member asking Fair representatives why
    The legal Carry of firearms concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit).

    isn't permitted...and VCDL publishing it as if the dumb SOB had just cured cancer.

  12. #12
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    Peter,

    Wouldn't it better to quietly e-mail the parties involved and ask for revision, rather than get bent out of shape.

    So, the Fair has a skewed view of legal firearm carry. Wouldn't it be more productive to just write Philip, who has little enough time and gets help on his ALERTS from others, and ask him to clarify that legal carry includes open carry?

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Dr. Mark I don't think anyone in this thread has an issue with folks carrying concealed (I know I don't). The issue is pushing a legislative agenda that only seeks to make headway for those who buy the permit to conceal, while ignoring the Constitutionally protected right of OC.
    ...and I don't think this discription fits VCDL. (not saying you do or don't, but I don't)

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Personally, I pay little attention to these minor points like "licensed is the only way".

    It seems to me that getting others to recognize or support rights is a matter of obtaining agreement from ambivalent or opposed people--both of who likely know little.

    It doesn't make sense to aim for too high a jump from one level of agreement to the next. If an ambivalent person won't accept OC, but will accept licensed carry, I'll take it. He'll come around with more educating.

    I think this is a bit of a tight-rope that Philip and the VCDL Board have to walk, too. If VCDL came down hard only for unlicensed possession and open carry of all weapons, even full auto, including schools, churches, courts, and....it would alienate supporters. How many? I don't know; but, I'll rely on Philip and the Board to get it right. I certainly can't change things alone, so I choose to ally myself with those who can. And, VCDL does have a track record of success.

    I just cannot see getting too upset because we have specialized knowledge or more opportunity to evaluate it.
    Yeah, my thoughts run along these lines.

    I'll be happy if I can carry without restriction -- open or concealed, without permit or permission -- I think that's my right the 2A was intended to recognize.

    My right is infringed upon by the state in many ways... I can't carry (open or concealed) on school property, I can't carry concealed w/o a permit, etc.

    I also believe VCDL is working to move us closer to that ideal for the benefit of all gun owners. Sometimes they (we, actually) can get us a step closer via something that benefits OCers and CCers from the outset. Sometimes they (we, actually) can get us a step closer via something that benefits CCers initially (as a foot in the door), to be expanded to all at the earliest opportunity.

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog
    NOTE: When I posted this I had my head in a dark smelly hole up to my shoulders and I was 100% WRONGas far as the VCDLs support of Open Carry goes. I am leaving it here so posts following make sense but had to let you know how WRONG this post is. I really shouldn't post when I am that sleep-deprived...
    The VCDL is a great group supporting all gun owners. The issue most HERE will have with them is that they, as an organization, are anti-OC for the most part. They tend to treat it like a dirty little secret that they just have to live with and will always try to steer one to CC with a permit. I volunteered for the VCDL when I lived in VA up till I moved back home to LA the first of this year. It is run and assisted by some great 2A people whom I call my friends. In Virginia, they ARE the defacto power and the most active and effective in promoting our rights as gun owners. It is not very expensive and not hard at all to get a license there unlike Louisiana. That alone makes licensed carry easier to do.

    I would like to see them open up to Open Carry support, more than they presently are but they are far from being a "bad" group!
    Last edited by HeroHog; 08-31-2010 at 05:50 PM. Reason: I was an idiot.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Peter,

    Wouldn't it better to quietly e-mail the parties involved and ask for revision, rather than get bent out of shape.

    ?
    It's too late for a revision but I've said all I had to say!

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Considering hailstorm of criticism I hear about someone asking if a property is posted, I wonder why I don't hear a peep about a VCDL member asking Fair representatives why The legal Carry of firearms concealed with a valid Virginia concealed handgun permit). isn't permitted...and VCDL publishing it as if the dumb SOB had just cured cancer.
    Some members are CC only, some OC only, some both.

    I see VCDL posting a CCer's story of trying to find a way to carry at the Fair. Good for him. Ideally, this CCer should understand or respect that CC ain't the only option, but he's pushing to open up a gun-free zone to guns. If we can't get completely through the door, get one foot in (CC), and then squeeze all the way in (OC & CC).

    His perspective is not as broad as it should be, but he's pushing in the right direction. I saw educate him that there's more than CC; don't curse VCDL for sharing his story.

    Also, good point about the relative newness of Shall Issue. I had my permit before Shall Issue, but still worked for Shall Issue. I use my permit, but still support making it obsolete through advocating permit-free carry.

    Sometime running plays help, sometimes passing plays do, but the goal is to keep moving the ball down the field toward increased freedom. IMO.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    The VCDL is a great group supporting all gun owners. The issue most HERE will have with them is that they, as an organization, are anti-OC for the most part. They tend to treat it like a dirty little secret that they just have to live with and will always try to steer one to CC with a permit. I volunteered for the VCDL when I lived in VA up till I moved back home to LA the first of this year. It is run and assisted by some great 2A people whom I call my friends. In Virginia, they ARE the defacto power and the most active and effective in promoting our rights as gun owners. It is not very expensive and not hard at all to get a license there unlike Louisiana. That alone makes licensed carry easier to do.

    I would like to see them open up to Open Carry support, more than they presently are but they are far from being a "bad" group!
    I strongly disagree with your text in red.

    I've been involved with VCDL for years, and when I see Philip and the Executive Members, they always (to my recollection) appear to be open carrying.

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    You can't please everyone...

    Or, sometimes, you can't please anyone.

    I hardly think that publishing in an alert, a story that a member submitted can be classified as "treating him like he cured cancer". That's just silly and petty.

    You're letting your emotions get in the way of your judgment.

    The other complaint...the story about a bank...was a reprinting of an article...not necessarily VCDL's position on the matter...just "spreading the word" about what happened.

    It's almost like you WANT to dislike VCDL so you intentionally look for things to get bent out of shape about.

    VCDL is NOT anti-open carry I don't even know where you would get that from. The FOUNDERS of Opencarry.org are both VCDL Executive (or board of directors) members. VCDL does not concentrate on Open Carry specifically, which is why the founders of Opencarry.org formed the group, but VCDL doesn't endorse concealed carry over open carry. VCDL supports and works to expand the right to keep and bear arms in general and does not take a position on any preference in the form of carry.

    Every VCDL event I've ever attended has had the majority (Including the President and BOD members) open carrying.

    VCDL works to advance gun rights in whatever arena is ripe. Unfortunately, VCDL doesn't get to set the legislative agenda. Our role is to monitor the legislature, support good legislation (even if it isn't perfect), oppose bad legislation, speak out in favor of or in opposition to that legislation, and hold legislators accountable for their votes.

    Ultimately, we'd like to see Vermont/Alaska/Arizona style permitless carry and the ability to carry openly or concealed anywhere that you are lawfully able to go in the state of Virginia. But we can't just wave a magic wand and make it happen. We have to work within the legislative system.

    We didn't get to where we are overnight and in one fell swoop and we're not going to get back that way either. VCDL is a no-compromise group in the sense that we will never stop pushing for full and complete recognition of the right to keep and bear arms in the state of Virginia. In the process of that work, however, in order to make progress toward that goal, some incremental compromises must be made to achieve success. Then we can build upon that success in the future.

    What's really interesting about diatribes like these is that, for every person who thinks VCDL compromises too much or doesn't support THEIR concerns enough, there is someone on the other side who thinks we spend too MUCH time and effort on that issue or think we're radicals or extremists because we DO support that issue.

    Which brings me back to the title and the first line of my comment: You can't please everyone...sometimes you can't please anyone...so you just do the best you can do.

    We'd like to have your support and assistance in fighting for gun rights in Virginia, even if you don't completely agree with everything VCDL does, says or supports, but if that's not possible, we wish you nothing but the best in your own efforts to expand gun rights in Virginia and look forward to fully endorsing and supporting the no-compromise legislation that you get introduced and sponsored.

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    To clarify.

    I'm just an Executive member, I don't speak for VCDL, even though I may have made it sound like it.

    Having been a member and EM for a while now, I'm confident that my statement conveys the position of VCDL accurately, but I'm not an official spokesperson. I wanted to make that clear.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailorcurt View Post
    I'm just an Executive member, I don't speak for VCDL, even though I may have made it sound like it.

    Having been a member and EM for a while now, I'm confident that my statement conveys the position of VCDL accurately, but I'm not an official spokesperson. I wanted to make that clear.
    I think you've spoken enough for them Curt!
    I'm not anti VCDL. If I was, I wouldn't be a member or spend as much time as I do with them. My guess is you put the alert together anyway.
    They do make mistakes and one of them was sending you over here to discuss it with me. It just firmed up my feelings about this!
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-31-2010 at 09:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMark View Post
    ...and I don't think this discription fits VCDL. (not saying you do or don't, but I don't)
    Nah I don't think VCDL fits the description. I think the VCDL has been a good orgainization and I also realize that VCDL doesn't have the power to introduce bills in the GA (although they could prep some and ask members to introduce them), as that's the responsibility of GA members. I have been pleased to see many VCDL executive type members open carrying and am glad for their support as I'm confident that having the public seeing guns in everyday life is what allowed for permit free concealed carry in places like AZ where OC has been the norm for ages. It is my hope that VCDL will continue to support further expansion of unlicensed OC and further expansion of unlicensed CC, such as the expansion of unlicensed CC now in secured containers within vehicles.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 08-31-2010 at 09:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    My guess is you put the alert together anyway.
    Your guess would be incorrect.

    I have nothing to do with producing or sending out the VA Alerts.


    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    They do make mistakes and one of them was sending you over here to discuss it with me.
    Again, incorrect. No one sent me here, I'm not a regular here (although I've been a member for years, I don't "do" the forum format much) and only found this thread through Google news alerts, which I have set up to keep up with what the anti's are saying and doing...is it ironic that this thread popped up in that context? Or just "par for the course" for a community that regularly "eats its own"?

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It just firmed up my feelings about this!
    Well, I'm sorry you feel that way...but the unfortunate fact is that some people just won't be reached. As I said before: I wish you well and hope you much success in securing Virginians' gun rights.

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailorcurt View Post
    Your guess would be incorrect.

    I have nothing to do with producing or sending out the VA Alerts.




    Again, incorrect. No one sent me here, I'm not a regular here (although I've been a member for years, I don't "do" the forum format much) and only found this thread through Google news alerts, which I have set up to keep up with what the anti's are saying and doing...is it ironic that this thread popped up in that context? Or just "par for the course" for a community that regularly "eats its own"?



    Well, I'm sorry you feel that way...but the unfortunate fact is that some people just won't be reached. As I said before: I wish you well and hope you much success in securing Virginians' gun rights.
    You finished now?

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    Lucky me, I just found this thread

    Where do I begin?

    First - Curt WAS NOT SENT HERE TO FIGHT MY BATTLES. The implication is insulting. He did a good job, but I am used to defending myself and so I shall.

    Second - Why do I have to learn of complaints like this by having to skim over OCDO? I do have an email address: president@vcdl.org. Granted I get a lot of emails all day long, but I read them all.

    Third, Peter you are reading way, way too much into those alert items. Yes, what was written to the State Fair should have had a note from me in the alert pointing out that open carry is equally legal. Rick had taken action on something and the points that I wanted to make with that item were:

    1. Their own mission statement contradicts their policies, as Rick caught
    2. Here was another activist trying to make a difference. His email correspondence did a good job, but he did only quote half of the legal ways to carry a handgun. Just too much going on and it slipped by me.

    Fourth, Thundar, I don't even know where to begin with your comments. Sorry about the bruise on your head, but it is a self-inflicted wound.

    Fifth, HeroHog, "The issue most HERE will have with them is that they, as an organization, are anti-OC for the most part." I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that comment. However, I can't let misinformation like that about VCDL slip by. Open carry is near and dear to VCDL's Board and EMs - take a look at photos of VCDL events sometime or attend a meeting the next time you are back in Virginia. The Board made a decision long ago to fully defend open carry. And it was VCDL that started pushing OC in restaurants back in the late 90's so people could stay armed. That had a big impact on jump starting the OC trend in VA. "They tend to treat it like a dirty little secret that they just have to live with and will always try to steer one to CC with a permit." I have no idea where you got that idea from - see my previous comments.

    Sixth, Peter, back to you - licensed carry is the only carry allowed in Texas (Chappell Hill story) - they don't have open carry at all, so I'm not sure what you are going to tell that bank manager, except, "thanks!"
    Last edited by VCDL President; 08-31-2010 at 12:35 PM.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Philip, I don't have a fight with you and I think you know it. An occasional disagreement but they have always been mild, nor do I have a fight with VCDL. As you know with my long gone NRA membership, I don't belong to groups that I hate.

    Curt is another matter and personal, so we won't discuss him.

    Rick's story was bad. I can't say anything good about it. He went on about our heritage and traditions accompanied by that statement.

    The Chappell Hill story Hill storywas just moonshine on the campfire. It doesn't matter if it's NC or Texas, it was in a Virginia alert.

    As far as P4P, that is a sore spot and last year is over. No need to go on about VCDL's support about it until we see what this year brings.

    We're still getting mileage out of VDOF and You know as much about that as I do, but you have worked on it and it's finally starting to pay off a little. Another week or so and we should see how much.

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