DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
Matt,
Read a few posts before your response... he realized he was mistaken in his initial assertions.
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I just got the new VCDL alert
- Thread starter peter nap
- Start date
Read a few posts before your response... he realized he was mistaken in his initial assertions.
DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
This is flat out wrong.
Carry is my right.
Ideally I will be able to legally carry without restriction -- open or concealed, without permit or permission -- that is my right to carry that the 2A was intended to recognize.
Unfortunately, my right is infringed upon by the state in many ways... I can't carry (open or concealed) on school property, I can't carry concealed w/o a permit, etc.
Also unfortunately, some who claim to support gun rights don't acknowledge my right to carry. For instance, trolls on GlockTalk don't acknowledge my right to carry openly. You, Thundar, don't acknowledge my right to carry concealed. You sling this coded p4p4 crap around to create disunity among gun owners and try to sling mud on Virginia'a strongest gun rights organization.
Fortunately, VCDL recognizes my right to carry (open & concealed), and works to break down barriers to exercise this right, in the biggest steps possible.
The Death Star Committee in the Senate was a travesty. Fortunately, the session was not a complete loss. Among the victories, my right to carry in a restaurant is now less restricted.
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simmonsjoe
Regular Member
Hey Don, I don't see what was wrong with this alert. I don't feel that was a valid p4p complaint my friend. The VCDL alerts contain many articles/incidents that are pro/anti/only ones. It is a reporting tool. Sometimes it has commentary by Philip, other times it does not. The reason Philip included this particular e-mail exchange seems to be Rick's comments about the Fair's mission statement, as well as to inform everyone of the Fair's anti-gun policy.
I would like to point out that Rick went through the effort of finding out this information for himself personally. Afterward, he decided to share that information with everyone, due to him being offended by their mission statement. It is quite possible in the e-mail, Rick was simply clarifying how he was planning to carry.(Which is a personal decision.) I feel after this effort was made by Rick, for Philip to somehow admonish him would be offensive by appearing thankless and non-supportive.
I know Philip comments on articles often. When it comes to e-mail exchanges, I've noticed he almost only comments on what VCDL members say positively. He reserves the negative comments or clarifications for the respondents. I feel this is good policy for the president of VCDL, especially considering these alerts are basically news reports. Not sure it is the correct place for Philip to be interspersing VCDL's policies and stances.
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One benefit of mentioning the VACHP(I don't like P4P either. I believe in Constitutional carry, [OC/CC w/o permit]) is that it immediately clarifies that carrying a handgun is legal in VA. Many of the people we have to interact with have no idea. I have mentioned my CHP before, even when I had every intention to OC. Later if I am asked 'don't you have to conceal that?' I can then clarify about OC/CC. I know that is kind of convoluted. When your dealing with people who have certain preconceptions you often need to take a circuitous route to avoid their mental roadblocks.
Removing 18.2-308 from the VA code will require chipping away at the issue. Occasionally this may lead to inequities between OC/CC. If you don't understand why I can accept this and still hate p4p, read and ponder the first line of my signature. If your pondering still leaves you questioning, I am willing to discuss this concept further offline at a dinner or similar.
--EDIT--
I neglected to read the rest of the responses, and see the above has already been well addressed.
Thundar - Where are you getting this junk info from? I've seen many top VCDL people OC'ing. That includes Philip Van Cleve, the president, who also disagrees with you. Many of the more active VCDL members OC. If you need proof, sign up for the alerts. Next time Philip asks for people to attend an important board of supervisors meeting or the like, GO. When you get there look at all the orange stickers. You will notice more of them are OCing than not. As for the past legislative season, it marked a turning point. It was a realistic victory. It would have been astronomical if the illegal Death Star didn't come into play. The momentum is really gaining, and we scared a lot of politicians. I feel we will look back on this years from now and say "that's when it started."
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HeroHog
Regular Member
I have already admitted this was completely false and a bad mistake on my part. If you look back just a little bit you will see that this has been addressed and corrected.
To the ones who dislike the VCDL, as an organization, the VCDL has been outstanding the 4 or 5 years I was involved with them and they have continued to be in the months since I have been gone from up there. The VCDL has 3 times the spine of the NRA and has consistently worked for strong adherence to the Second Amendment of the Constitution.
If you don't like something they did, and your gripe is reasonable or has any merit, I am sure that they will do their best to address it. They are very open and will work tirelessly to address any issue within their purview and I have always found them to be quite amicable. I would also suggest getting involved and work from the inside if you want change. Go to the meetings, the events, work the gun shows with them. Work with the one organization that has truly made a difference in VA for gun owners.
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Marco
Regular Member
1+
Encourage all those in VA that support 2A, not just gun owners
I'm not a Board member or EM.
When I read the alert I too thought there should have been some clarifaction but I wasn't bothered that there wasn't.
Personally I hate having a permit but I have one more for travel purposes than any other reason.
The issue isn't the permit M, and we've discussed this and you feel much the same as I do. I shouldn't have referred to Rick as a Dumb SOB because I don't know him. Curt is:lol: but Rick may have just gotten wordy.
The real problem with what he wrote is that he was talking about honoring Virginia's traditions and Heritage, then referring to legal gun owners with CHP's.
Virginia's traditions and heritage have nothing to do with CHP's and there are a lot more non CHP, legal gun owners, than CHP's in this state.
As this thread shows, there is a lot of difficulty separating VCDL from it's board, EM's and general members.
Just because I don't like some of the policies VCDL has, doesn't mean I don't support VCDL. The only intelligent thing I've ever seen Sailor Curt write is that you can't please everyone (He must have copied it from somewhere)....but you can't.
I don't and won't support P4P legislation that VCDL endorses. I will support VCDL as a whole though.
What makes VCDL strong is the block of voters not the individual differences we have.
Yes, Philip should have caught it. That doesn't mean I dislike Philip. On the contrary, other than occasional disagreements over policy, Philip and I get along very well.
I happen to agree with a lot of what Thundar says, but not the attacks on VCDL or to the extent he goes. If you do a search for the July 1st celebration, Thundar was mad about the wording on the cake. I said that I was sure Philip didn't choose the wording to offend anyone but if Sailor Curt had popped out of it, I'd have been pissed.
And yes, I agree with you and the others that VCDL membership should be top priorty with gun owners. Then more of us could argue policy:lol:
The fact that on the same day I read the alert and got mad about it, I also shelled out a couple of hundred dollars for various memberships I pay for, should show that.
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Thundar
Regular Member
It would be nice if concealed carry were a right, but alas that is not so in the real world. I am a big advocate for constitutional carry. That fixes it.
VCDL has not fought the big battles. We do not see Virginia Constitutional Carry, we do not see strong support for the Virginia Firearms Freedom Act.
We do see strong support from VCDL for numerous concealed carry enhancements.
VCDL grew out of the "shall issue" movement in Northern Virginia. In many ways they are still stuck in that mindset. They are willing to compromise and give up something to get something else. What they give up on is gun rights. What they get is more perks for permittees.
I often hear, that isn't true because many VCDL members OC. This isn't about carry habits of members, it is about legislative priorities. Look at what was strongly supported (Perks for Permittees) then look at what was only supported (gun rights) in the VCDL Legislative tracking tool. My stance is based on the behavior of the group.
Nobody refutes the basic facts about what VCDL did and did not do in the last legislative session. Many get mad because I dare to compare what P4P acomplishments vs. what gun rights VCDL enhanced. VCDL is a good organization with an honest agenda. I happen to think that open carry rights are more important than perks for permittees. It does not appear that VCDL shares this view. Ask Philip. I did. The answer I got from him was that VCDL is a large organization with many interests, including many CHP holders. (In fact VDCL has used CHP lists in recruiting drives) I am honest in what I write here and back it up with facts. Pejorative remarks and rude PMs will not change my mind. VCDL action on the constitutional carry issue just might.
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That;'s true Thundar and we went over that a lot last session. It was not one of VCDL's better showings.
But if you look back, they've had better days too. Several years ago there was a bill (I've forgotten which one) that the CHP people were excited about, and VCDL refused to support it because it excluded open carry. Philip was firm about VCDL's dislike.
This will be a new GA session and I don't have any idea what will happen, but the time to fight about it is then.
VCDL has been quiet about the VDOF issue recently. That doesn't mean they haven't been addressing it. I'm not an insider so all I know is what I see from my dealings with VDOF.... but while I was being a thorn in the side of the administration, they have been pressing for OC,CC in the rules.
I don't know what the exact wording will be but NEW wording will be coming soon on that and it will go into a new 30 day comment period. So VCDL is working on open carry rights.
There are many things that I differ from VCDL with and have quietly worked on. That's life. Remember the Authority you jumped on this summer and Old Va also quietly contacted. It was changed.
The same happens with VCDL.
Even though the bath water gets a little soiled, we don't want to throw the baby out.
Thundar
Regular Member
I agree with you Peter. WHat gets under my skin is the way in which some address the entire issue. It as if I am some sort of zombie for pointing out the truth. Their paternal attitude towards gun rights and CHP priveledges in Virginia borders on arrogance.
The problem is that I define the baby as improved Virginia gun rights. That baby got run over this year. VCDL held a celebration. It should have been a wake.
We couldn't agree more Thundar!
The paternal attitude isn't VCDL though, it's a select few. Should I drop VCDL because of Curt? It's not a social organization. Is GOA better than VCDL...well, with some things, yes. I belong to both.
Should CHP matters be dropped? No! I was fighting for better CHP laws long before VCDL existed.
Does NOVA have too much influence? Yes but that may change as more rural people find VCDL.
Was this past year a miserable failure? Yes! Let's see what this year brings.
Is there a rift in VCDL and among gun owners. Damn right and that's the big danger. When that rift starts to result in back biting and a true division within VCDL, we're back to square one.
You have a lot of good ideas Thundar and a lot of drive. You have been able to get things done on your own. I don't have the same problems with what you say that some others do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and to voice them.
You'll never hear me say that the VCDL agenda is the only one to follow because it isn't. I support the part of VCDL that fits and that's what benefits ALL gun owners, and don't support the parts that benefit a select few.
I will say this though. I spend a lot of time at the General Assembly, mostly in various agricultural and rural matters, but when it's important or I have extra time, in gun related committee meetings.
The NRA Rep is worse than useless. The only real pro gun force in those meetings is VCDL. Dennis, Philip, Dale and Paul are always there for the important ones, members show up and some speak but all wear GSL stickers. It does have an effect on the GA members.
Long before VCDL, I was an FFL. We were the only grassroots lobby that really did much in the legislature and we were so small, it was ineffective.
I don't want to go back to those days and I don't want Virginia to become a permit state either. I won't have any chance of preventing either by staying on the outside.
DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
Our right to bear arms, as acknowledged by the US and VA Constitutions, is not carry-mode specific. And whether one carries openly or concealed, that right is infringed upon. Yes, in the real world, rights are infringed upon; that doesn't mean they are not rights.
I think people's frustration with you stems from your disrespect of the rights of many gun owners, and your misrepresentation of those rights to create rifts among gun owners and to disparage gun rights activits and organizations like VCDL. You seem bewildered by people's frustration with you... if you wondered about the reason for that frustration, there it is, in my opinion.
In large part due to VCDL, my right to carry in a restaurant is now less restricted. That is an advancement of my gun rights. A greater, and wonderful, advancement of my gun rights would be revocation of the permit system that infringes on my right to carry by putting conditions on the mode. We agree that constitutional carry is the way to go.
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Thundar
Regular Member
IMHO those that legally carry concealed are not exercising a right,they are exercising a priveledge extended to them by the District Court, acting in accordance with Commonwealth law. The law is quite clear. They have paid for, and carry their government permission slips. That is not the right.
The continued efforts to enhance the perks afforded to those that carry permission slips does nothing to enhance our gun rights, and IMHO is often detrimental to the cause of improving gun rights.
The permission slips are used by the government to harm gun rights in ways that are unrelated to the concealed carry of firearms. The permission slip alllows the carry of assault firearms in certain cities and counties. The permission slip allows the purchase of more than one handgun a month.
Permission slips are part of the problem. On that we agree. Where we disagree is on whether enhancing the perks afforded to these problem permission slips helps or hurts gun rights. You believe that improving the perks makes it easier for permittees and is therefore a good thing. I believe that the enhancement of perks harms gun rights by creating different classes of citizens, diverting gun rights activism efforts and providing a premise for gun regulation unrelated to the concealed carry of handguns.
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
Comprehension Fail-
THUNDAR - Rights pre-exist gov't and are God given. Just because the gov't treats CC as a privilege doesn't mean ****. Anything we can do to reduce infringement, inside and outside of permitting systems is beneficial.
You can fight to reform the permitting system and fight to abolish it at the same time.
The quickest way to tunnel through a mountain is to dig from both ends.
THUNDAR - Rights pre-exist gov't and are God given. Just because the gov't treats CC as a privilege doesn't mean ****. Anything we can do to reduce infringement, inside and outside of permitting systems is beneficial.
You can fight to reform the permitting system and fight to abolish it at the same time.
The quickest way to tunnel through a mountain is to dig from both ends.
DrMark
Lone Star Veteran
Your position on concealed carry not being a right is something like Sarah Brady might spout. I'm stunned to find it on this site. Carry is the right, concealed or open. The permit system is an infringement thereon, overdue for extinction. You specified legal concealed carry... do you believe those carrying concealed illegally are exercising a right?
False. I believe that reducing infringements on our gun rights is a good thing. With a carry mode option in restaurants now, my right to carry is infringed upon a little bit less.
RussP
Regular Member
I open carry when and where appropriate. I carry concealed when and where appropriate.
In Virginia it is against the law to carry a firearm concealed. The defense for doing so is possessing a Concealed Handgun Permit. Because I am a law abiding citizen of the Commonwealth, I possess a CHP.
DrMark has a good question. Do you advocate carrying concealed illegally, thereby exercising a right?
Thundar
Regular Member
Russ P,
I know what rights we are supposed to have, and I know what rights we actually have. The acceptance of permit requirements by gunowners only serves to legitimize the abomination.
I do not advocate breaking laws. I advocate open carry. You have a CHP for which you have paid a sum of money and which you must renew. Doesn't look, smell, taste or feel like a fundamental right to me.
Silly insults with comparisons to Sara Brady are a sad comment.
The motto of OCDO is "A right unexercised is a right lost." Law Abiding Citizens do not conceal without a government permission slip. The legitimization of the requirement to have a government permission slip destroys the right. Enhancing perks for permittees further legitimizes the permission slips and further erodes the concealed carry right.
I really do wish that constitutional carry would be a more important issue for gunowners, but I won't pretend that a concealed carry right still exists in VA when gunowners continue to support a special rights for permittees program. CHP is a priveledge that excludes all 18-21 year olds, citizens of other countries and those that have had unrelated misdemeanor convictions.
I know what rights we are supposed to have, and I know what rights we actually have. The acceptance of permit requirements by gunowners only serves to legitimize the abomination.
I do not advocate breaking laws. I advocate open carry. You have a CHP for which you have paid a sum of money and which you must renew. Doesn't look, smell, taste or feel like a fundamental right to me.
Silly insults with comparisons to Sara Brady are a sad comment.
The motto of OCDO is "A right unexercised is a right lost." Law Abiding Citizens do not conceal without a government permission slip. The legitimization of the requirement to have a government permission slip destroys the right. Enhancing perks for permittees further legitimizes the permission slips and further erodes the concealed carry right.
I really do wish that constitutional carry would be a more important issue for gunowners, but I won't pretend that a concealed carry right still exists in VA when gunowners continue to support a special rights for permittees program. CHP is a priveledge that excludes all 18-21 year olds, citizens of other countries and those that have had unrelated misdemeanor convictions.
simmonsjoe
Regular Member
Total Comprehension Fail
You really don't fundamentally understand what is a right.
The law cannot define a right. It can only recognize them.
For instance, Carry is your right. Period. If you carry concealed, it is still your right, even though you are breaking the law and subject to punishment if caught.
You seem to be confusing Human Rights with Civil Liberties (aka Civil Rights)
illegal ≠ immoral :idea: legal ≠ moral
Human Rights are based on morals.
*facepalm*
You really don't fundamentally understand what is a right.
The law cannot define a right. It can only recognize them.
For instance, Carry is your right. Period. If you carry concealed, it is still your right, even though you are breaking the law and subject to punishment if caught.
You seem to be confusing Human Rights with Civil Liberties (aka Civil Rights)
illegal ≠ immoral :idea: legal ≠ moral
Human Rights are based on morals.
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Thundar
Regular Member
I am not confusing anything. Since you discuss in civil rights terms here is an analogy:
If we were to talk about the 14th A equal protection clause and look at the seperate but equal doctrine practiced in much of the south, would you work to end the practice, or to make it more equal?
The P4P theory would say make them more equal is good because they are getting closer to being the same.
The constitutional approach would say end the practice.
Making them more equal does not help to end the practice. It only further legitimizes the infringement.
People only have the rights they are willing to fight for. That is the reason for the 2A.
Virginia Gun Owners are not willing to fight for constitutional carry, even at the relatively safe political level. Instead they fight for Concealed Carry perks, further legitimizing the loss of the concealed carry right.