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Thread: Ammo used by Seattle PD?

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    Ammo used by Seattle PD?

    I'm trying to follow the suggestions I've seen several places, to use the same ammo for your CPL weapon, that the local police use for their pistols. However, I've not been able to find anywhere on the 'Net about what ammo is being used by the Seattle PD...anyone know?
    Yes, I could call and ask, but I thought someone here would know...

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    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

    (That was the scenario they used.)

    I'd be interested in knowing the details - either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

    (That was the scenario they used.)

    I'd be interested in knowing the details - either way.
    Interesting...most of the stuff I've read goes along this line:
    "If you ever have to shoot somebody, you WILL be sued (even if no charges against you are ever filed). Having to defend your decisions and actions will be bad enough without the spectre of customizing a "killer bullet" hanging over your head. Far better when asked about your ammo choice to say, "I bought what the police use."

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    Regular Member WinchesterModel12's Avatar
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    all bullets are "killer" bullets if they hit the correct spot.
    Last edited by WinchesterModel12; 08-30-2010 at 02:16 PM.
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    SPD ammo

    The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

    SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

    In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

    ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triehl27 View Post
    The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

    SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

    In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

    ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.
    Terrific, thank you! I've always liked Gold Dots; nice to know that the PD is using them.
    How did you ever get such detailed info??

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    Quote Originally Posted by triehl27 View Post
    In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

    ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder....
    Please cite the source of your information about the round that hit Clemmons at the Forza coffee shop.

    BTW: The Gold Dot 180 grain is a great round. I've got 11 of them loaded into my G27 that is on my right hip as I type this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Not in Washington state.

    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime Reimbursement.
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    You know, I quoted that at the Marksman when the "professional trainers" said that a lawsuit is inevitable after a shooting. They said "you will be sued" and didn't address that the law says "legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever."

    Olypendrew, care to comment?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Not in Washington state.

    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime Reimbursement.
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    Good to know. I use .45 Hornady Critical Defense ammo but will likely go with Gold Dots for my 9mm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    You know, I quoted that at the Marksman when the "professional trainers" said that a lawsuit is inevitable after a shooting. They said "you will be sued" and didn't address that the law says "legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever."

    Olypendrew, care to comment?
    Law shmaw.... all it takes is a lawyer hungry enough to take your case!

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    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    Please cite the source of your information about the round that hit Clemmons at the Forza coffee shop.
    A source of the SPD ammo would be nice too.

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    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    A source of the SPD ammo would be nice too.
    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/63233-5.html

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=582872

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    I use Double Tap JHP 200gr in my .45 and Speer Gold Dot JHP 124gr in my 9. Both are bonded cartridges and both expand reliably. I got them at Ben's Loan in Renton.
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    There is a great podcast out there called http://proarmspodcast.com/ in which the almighty god Massad Ayoob and other incredibly knowledgeable folks talk about this kind of stuff.

    In fact episode 23
    http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/04/26...-your-caliber/

    They specifically address ammo.

    I have often heard Massad (All praise he who is god of firearms) say that you should use what the police use. Both because its good for self defense and you can defend yourself in court.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nofoa View Post
    (All praise he who is god of firearms) say that you should use what the police use. Both because its good for self defense and you can defend yourself in court.
    I believe Ayoob appointed himself the "god of firearms" back in the 70's. He keeps reciting the same "dated" info on and on. Doesn't even bother to check what State Laws might have to say on the topics.

    As for "shooting what the police do" you could load up with just about anything that will fit in your gun. If your shoot is good, it's good. If it's not, it's not. The ammo that is used by local police will have no bearing on any charges you might face, even if you are using it.

    Remember, Deadly Force is just that, Deadly. Shoot someone with a gun, bash them with a rock, or stab with a knife. If you were doing it to defend yourself OK. If not, then you are "in the sauce".

    As for any Civil action, people can file suits for just about anything. Only defense here as well is to make sure that a shooting incident was purely Self Defense.

    BTW, it really doesn't take a special bullet to shoot through a windshield. It merely takes one that does not tend to loose the jacket metal when it passes through the plastic "sandwich" material in the windshield. This is a common problem when a bullet is swages (press formed) inside a brass/copper jacket. In the case of the Gold Dot HP's, the jacket material is bonded by electroplating it to the core. It stays together, not only when passing through windshields, but when expanding inside of bodies. Retains mass better than some and doesn't tend to fragment (I guess to make the job for the Coroner easier).
    Last edited by amlevin; 08-30-2010 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triehl27 View Post
    The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

    SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

    In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

    ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.
    Hmmm....I carry .40.....must be a good round.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rictshaw View Post
    Interesting...most of the stuff I've read goes along this line:
    "If you ever have to shoot somebody, you WILL be sued (even if no charges against you are ever filed). Having to defend your decisions and actions will be bad enough without the spectre of customizing a "killer bullet" hanging over your head. Far better when asked about your ammo choice to say, "I bought what the police use."
    Not in Washington state.

    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    Realize that the statute likely only protects you if you are no-billed by a grand-jury or the prosecutor declines to take it to a gand-jury. I'm betting that if the prosecutor thinks your lethal force was not reasonable, he's going to take it to a grand-jury. It has long been a maxim of justified lethal force that reasonableness is decided by the grand jury or trial jury.

    Also, I wonder. Does a prosecutor deciding not to prosecute insulate you from a civil suit? In such a case, no court or jury has determined the shooting "reasonable." Does the prosecutor's legal opinion that it was reasonable, or just his refusal to prosecute without a stated opinion of reasonableness, trigger the statutory protection?

    What if the prosecutor just says there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution? Well, maybe that would not apply since self-defense is often an affirmative defense. I don't know whether Washington law views self-defense as an affirmative defense.

    Also, the reasonableness angle aside, there is the whole legal question of whether it was a self-defense shooting at all. Just because the shooter knows it was does not mean the prosecutor and police are going to believe it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-30-2010 at 10:54 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Not in Washington state.

    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime Reimbursement.
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    It is my understanding that this does not apply in a civil case only criminal.
    We must read on to gain the entire scope of this RCW.

    (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.

    (3) Notwithstanding a finding that a defendant's actions were justified by self-defense, if the trier of fact also determines that the defendant was engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the charges filed against the defendant the judge may deny or reduce the amount of the award. In determining the amount of the award, the judge shall also consider the seriousness of the initial criminal conduct.

    Nothing in this section precludes the legislature from using the sundry claims process to grant an award where none was granted under this section or to grant a higher award than one granted under this section.

    (4) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section is decided by a judge, the judge shall consider the same questions as must be answered in the special verdict under subsection (4) [(5)] of this section.

    (5) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section has been submitted to a jury, and the jury has found the defendant not guilty, the court shall instruct the jury to return a special verdict in substantially the following form:
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
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    to use the same ammo for your CPL weapon, that the local police use for their pistols.
    So what are you going to do when you travel out of Seattle into unincorporated King County or one of the contract cities, then through Normandy Park, on through to Des Moines, and into Federal Way, Tacoma bound?

    All these places have different police departments that probably issue different ammo. Just do your own research and carry what stops best and functions in your gun.

    I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

    (That was the scenario they used.)
    Absurd. There's no law restricting certain handgun self defense rounds to police only. Who are "they"?

  20. #20
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    Is there any reason as to why you want to carry the same round as the local police outside of the effect it will have on your target? Really, any quality defensive ammunition should be fine for any pistol using a common chambering from 9x19mm on up. Gold Dots, Hydra Shoks, PDX-1, TAP, etc it will all work adequately for our purposes provided we can get rounds on target in a combat effective zone. I personally carry 180 gr Speer Gold Dots in my M&P 40, because they were what was available.

    For 9x18mm, .380, .32 ACP, etc I strongly suggest carrying FMJ rounds, as JHPs and defensive rounds for these smaller calibers are less effective (inadequate penetration in lab tests) when compared to FMJ.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Absurd. There's no law restricting certain handgun self defense rounds to police only. Who are "they"?
    I was at a gun shop. I don't remember which one or I would've mentioned it.

  22. #22
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    The language in the statute of, "No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever" is both strong and broad. I would think if the legislature intended for it to be limited to criminal prosecution they would have stated something like, "No person in the state shall be placed in jeopardy of criminal conviction..."

    I might be wrong, though. I don't know if there is any case history or not.

    If you are found liable in a civil suit, is it still not considered legal liability and the civil suit considered a legal action?

    This doesn't really answer the question:
    http://danielreitman.wordpress.com/2...vil-liability/

    When I get a few moments, I will write to the author and ask the question.

    OK, sent it anyway:

    Mr. Reitman,
    WA has this statute (not repeated here in entirety for sake of space):
    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.


    My question: Does this statute protect a person deemed to be acting in self defense from a civil suit as well as a criminal conviction?
    Thank you!
    Very Respectfully,
    John
    Please let us know if you receive a reply, I am interested as it would be something I would embrace.

    Some concerns as to how will it be determined if acted in self defense. To what standard would it be held to and lets say you meet it then how is it determined and how will the State become liable to pay the cost in an action they did not bring?
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-31-2010 at 03:00 PM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  23. #23
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Here is the reply I received:

    Daniel Reitman says: September 2, 2010 at 8:06 pm
    RCW 9A.16.110 probably does provide a defense to civil liability. The primary meaning of the statute, however, is subsections (2) through (5), which allow for reimbursement of costs and attorney fees to a criminal defendant who successfully raises a self-defense defense and the jury finds that the defendant proved self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence (but that the defendant was not otherwise engaged in a criminal act).

    Notice the word probably, though...
    Wondering who or how self defense would be determined until such time there is some type of court action and/or ruling.
    It does seem to me that if you were charged and found you acted in self defense it would go along with preventing a civil case against you but if no criminal charges were filed, how would that play out?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  24. #24
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    A few years ago in Skagit County a guy in Burlington shot a father and son on his front porch who were trying to enter his house. He and his wife were going through a break up. The son was the wife's boy friend. They came to the house with the wife to pick up some things. The husband told them to leave as he did not know the men. He had his daughter with him in the house.
    He shot both in the head the father died the son has brain damage.
    It went to trial and he was found innocent by self defense. The family and the son filed a civil suit againist him. Have not heard the out come.

    http://www.goskagit.com/home/print/5992/

    http://www.goskagit.com/home/print/5986/
    Last edited by ghosthunter; 09-03-2010 at 01:50 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    Found it Civil suit was settled out of court for 300.00.00.

    http://www.goskagit.com/home/print/13624/

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