Ammo used by Seattle PD?

rictshaw · Aug 30, 2010

I'm trying to follow the suggestions I've seen several places, to use the same ammo for your CPL weapon, that the local police use for their pistols. However, I've not been able to find anywhere on the 'Net about what ammo is being used by the Seattle PD...anyone know?
Yes, I could call and ask, but I thought someone here would know...

Leatherneck · Aug 30, 2010

I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

(That was the scenario they used.)

I'd be interested in knowing the details - either way.

rictshaw · Aug 30, 2010

Leatherneck said:
I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

(That was the scenario they used.)

I'd be interested in knowing the details - either way.

Interesting...most of the stuff I've read goes along this line:
"If you ever have to shoot somebody, you WILL be sued (even if no charges against you are ever filed). Having to defend your decisions and actions will be bad enough without the spectre of customizing a "killer bullet" hanging over your head. Far better when asked about your ammo choice to say, "I bought what the police use."

WinchesterModel12 · Aug 30, 2010

all bullets are "killer" bullets if they hit the correct spot.

triehl27 · Aug 30, 2010

SPD ammo

The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.

rictshaw · Aug 30, 2010

triehl27 said:
The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.

Terrific, thank you! I've always liked Gold Dots; nice to know that the PD is using them.
How did you ever get such detailed info??

G20-IWB24/7 · Aug 30, 2010

triehl27 said:
In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder....

Please cite the source of your information about the round that hit Clemmons at the Forza coffee shop.

BTW: The Gold Dot 180 grain is a great round. I've got 11 of them loaded into my G27 that is on my right hip as I type this...

Tawnos · Aug 30, 2010

NavyLT said:
Not in Washington state.

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

You know, I quoted that at the Marksman when the "professional trainers" said that a lawsuit is inevitable after a shooting. They said "you will be sued" and didn't address that the law says "legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever."

Olypendrew, care to comment?

gsx1138 · Aug 30, 2010

NavyLT said:
Not in Washington state.

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

Good to know. I use .45 Hornady Critical Defense ammo but will likely go with Gold Dots for my 9mm.

daddy4count · Aug 30, 2010

Tawnos said:
You know, I quoted that at the Marksman when the "professional trainers" said that a lawsuit is inevitable after a shooting. They said "you will be sued" and didn't address that the law says "legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever."

Olypendrew, care to comment?

Law shmaw.... all it takes is a lawyer hungry enough to take your case!

Leatherneck · Aug 30, 2010

G20-IWB24/7 said:
Please cite the source of your information about the round that hit Clemmons at the Forza coffee shop.

A source of the SPD ammo would be nice too.

Whitney · Aug 30, 2010

Leatherneck said:
A source of the SPD ammo would be nice too.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/63233-5.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=582872

Ruby · Aug 30, 2010

I use Double Tap JHP 200gr in my .45 and Speer Gold Dot JHP 124gr in my 9. Both are bonded cartridges and both expand reliably. I got them at Ben's Loan in Renton.

nofoa · Aug 30, 2010

There is a great podcast out there called http://proarmspodcast.com/ in which the almighty god Massad Ayoob and other incredibly knowledgeable folks talk about this kind of stuff.

In fact episode 23
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/04/26/023-high-quality-for-your-caliber/

They specifically address ammo.

I have often heard Massad (All praise he who is god of firearms) say that you should use what the police use. Both because its good for self defense and you can defend yourself in court.

amlevin · Aug 30, 2010

nofoa said:
(All praise he who is god of firearms) say that you should use what the police use. Both because its good for self defense and you can defend yourself in court.

I believe Ayoob appointed himself the "god of firearms" back in the 70's. He keeps reciting the same "dated" info on and on. Doesn't even bother to check what State Laws might have to say on the topics.

As for "shooting what the police do" you could load up with just about anything that will fit in your gun. If your shoot is good, it's good. If it's not, it's not. The ammo that is used by local police will have no bearing on any charges you might face, even if you are using it.

Remember, Deadly Force is just that, Deadly. Shoot someone with a gun, bash them with a rock, or stab with a knife. If you were doing it to defend yourself OK. If not, then you are "in the sauce".

As for any Civil action, people can file suits for just about anything. Only defense here as well is to make sure that a shooting incident was purely Self Defense.

BTW, it really doesn't take a special bullet to shoot through a windshield. It merely takes one that does not tend to loose the jacket metal when it passes through the plastic "sandwich" material in the windshield. This is a common problem when a bullet is swages (press formed) inside a brass/copper jacket. In the case of the Gold Dot HP's, the jacket material is bonded by electroplating it to the core. It stays together, not only when passing through windshields, but when expanding inside of bodies. Retains mass better than some and doesn't tend to fragment (I guess to make the job for the Coroner easier).

gogodawgs · Aug 30, 2010

triehl27 said:
The ammo used by the Seattle PD is Speer Gold dot .40S&W 180grn. And 124grn in 9mm.

SPD is currently evaluating the .45acp for duty issue, I am unsure if they have decided on a final ammunition choice in the .45, but Speer Gold Dots would be an excellent guess.

In the semi recent Maurice Clemmons shoot the 4 .40cal rounds fired by SPD officer all expanded perfectly even after striking bone. And 3 entered at odd (Non straight on) angles and managed to still traverse the body.

ON The otherhand the Winchester Ranger round fired at the scene of the murder did not expand properly and slid around the rib cage under the skin following the edge of a rib, to the rear of the body. It came to rest just under the skin, so shallow it could have been easily sqeezed out of the skin like a pimple or incised and removed easily by almost anyone.

Hmmm....I carry .40.....must be a good round.

Citizen · Aug 30, 2010

NavyLT said:
rictshaw said:

Interesting...most of the stuff I've read goes along this line:
"If you ever have to shoot somebody, you WILL be sued (even if no charges against you are ever filed). Having to defend your decisions and actions will be bad enough without the spectre of customizing a "killer bullet" hanging over your head. Far better when asked about your ammo choice to say, "I bought what the police use."

Click to expand...

Not in Washington state.

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

Realize that the statute likely only protects you if you are no-billed by a grand-jury or the prosecutor declines to take it to a gand-jury. I'm betting that if the prosecutor thinks your lethal force was not reasonable, he's going to take it to a grand-jury. It has long been a maxim of justified lethal force that reasonableness is decided by the grand jury or trial jury.

Also, I wonder. Does a prosecutor deciding not to prosecute insulate you from a civil suit? In such a case, no court or jury has determined the shooting "reasonable." Does the prosecutor's legal opinion that it was reasonable, or just his refusal to prosecute without a stated opinion of reasonableness, trigger the statutory protection?

What if the prosecutor just says there is insufficient evidence for a prosecution? Well, maybe that would not apply since self-defense is often an affirmative defense. I don't know whether Washington law views self-defense as an affirmative defense.

Also, the reasonableness angle aside, there is the whole legal question of whether it was a self-defense shooting at all. Just because the shooter knows it was does not mean the prosecutor and police are going to believe it.

BigDave · Aug 31, 2010

NavyLT said:
Not in Washington state.

RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.
(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

It is my understanding that this does not apply in a civil case only criminal.
We must read on to gain the entire scope of this RCW.

(2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.

(3) Notwithstanding a finding that a defendant's actions were justified by self-defense, if the trier of fact also determines that the defendant was engaged in criminal conduct substantially related to the events giving rise to the charges filed against the defendant the judge may deny or reduce the amount of the award. In determining the amount of the award, the judge shall also consider the seriousness of the initial criminal conduct.

Nothing in this section precludes the legislature from using the sundry claims process to grant an award where none was granted under this section or to grant a higher award than one granted under this section.

(4) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section is decided by a judge, the judge shall consider the same questions as must be answered in the special verdict under subsection (4) [(5)] of this section.

(5) Whenever the issue of self-defense under this section has been submitted to a jury, and the jury has found the defendant not guilty, the court shall instruct the jury to return a special verdict in substantially the following form:

deanf · Aug 31, 2010

to use the same ammo for your CPL weapon, that the local police use for their pistols.

So what are you going to do when you travel out of Seattle into unincorporated King County or one of the contract cities, then through Normandy Park, on through to Des Moines, and into Federal Way, Tacoma bound?

All these places have different police departments that probably issue different ammo. Just do your own research and carry what stops best and functions in your gun.

I was told that we aren't allowed to use the same ammo they use because we shouldn't have any need for shooting through anyone's windshield for self defense.

(That was the scenario they used.)

Absurd. There's no law restricting certain handgun self defense rounds to police only. Who are "they"?

k.rollin · Aug 31, 2010

Is there any reason as to why you want to carry the same round as the local police outside of the effect it will have on your target? Really, any quality defensive ammunition should be fine for any pistol using a common chambering from 9x19mm on up. Gold Dots, Hydra Shoks, PDX-1, TAP, etc it will all work adequately for our purposes provided we can get rounds on target in a combat effective zone. I personally carry 180 gr Speer Gold Dots in my M&P 40, because they were what was available.

For 9x18mm, .380, .32 ACP, etc I strongly suggest carrying FMJ rounds, as JHPs and defensive rounds for these smaller calibers are less effective (inadequate penetration in lab tests) when compared to FMJ.

Ammo used by Seattle PD?

New member

Regular Member

New member

Regular Member

Regular Member

New member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Founder's Club Member

Opt-Out Members

Regular Member

Regular Member