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Thread: Seattle officer shoots man with knife

  1. #1
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    Seattle officer shoots man with knife

    Furor in Seattle: Did man die for whittling, or posing a clear threat?



    "..Perhaps not since the David Walker incident in which Walker was fatally shot by a Seattle officer after allegedly pulling a robbery, and then prancing and walking down a sidewalk – ignoring demands by several cops to drop the knife he held – has the public been fixated on a “knife versus gun” situation..."

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...a-clear-threat

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/29yng3x

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    Would it be wrong of me to point out that it is impossible to shoot someone with a knife? You have to shoot them with a gun. Or am I just grammar obsessed?
    Last edited by heresolong; 08-31-2010 at 03:30 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Maybe Seattle should stop equipping their officers with Tasers and other Less than Lethal weapons if they aren't going to use them. Either that or some serious training on the proper level(s) of response.

    Don't know and wasn't there but it does sound like this might have taken a different direction than the officer shooting this guy.

    In the 60's I worked in Seattle and my job brought me in close contact with both Police and Street People (back them we called them Bums). Most were too stupid from their Ripple or MD 20/20 to understand anything you said to them. They also had a tendency to get real friendly and wanted to either give you a hug or shake their hand. Officers developed a technique of putting one end their baton in the middle of their chest as a "spacer" and pushed them as far away as their arm and baton would allow. Kept them from getting too close. At that time they were just "pickled stupid" and not all that dangerous.
    Last edited by amlevin; 08-31-2010 at 03:25 PM.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Maybe Seattle should stop equipping their officers with Tasers and other Less than Lethal weapons if they aren't going to use them. Either that or some serious training on the proper level(s) of response.
    Most street people wear to many clothes for a taser to be effective. They require contact with the skin. Many layers of clothes or a heavy jacket will make sure a taser isn't deployed, as it will be a waste of time.
    Last edited by j2l3; 08-31-2010 at 04:58 PM.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    Dave mentioned it, the Tueller Principle holds very true for both LE and civilians when dealing with a knife threat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    Should be interesting to see if the guy was actually whittling, carving or presenting a threat to the officer. I'll form more of an opinion as I gather more info. Now I'll sit back and let the cop-hate fly.

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    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Would it be wrong of me to point out that it is impossible to shoot someone with a knife? You have to shoot them with a gun. Or am I just grammar obsessed?
    "Sally asked Jane for her keys" OMG I hate bad grammar!

    On topic, however, are all officers told to just shoot no matter what? Seriously? Any officer who kills a man when other options were on the table should lose their job as an officer. I understand that if someone felt their life was at risk and shot. That is a citizen's response. A police officer should be trained to know other options, and if they cannot handle the situation no better than a citizen, then they should go back to being a citizen.

    Joe~

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    Joe,
    Ignoring your grammar issue, there are times when the officer doesn't have time to use a less-lethal option. If everything was perfect then sure, go through the levels of force as you're trained. That said things on the street happen much faster than in training and they never go down as planned. Any of the cops I know will draw a gun to face a knife, not a Taser. Tasers are for encounters with the unarmed IMO.
    Many of us use knives as a tool on a daily basis for whatever reason. Don't forget that those same knives can be used as a lethal weapon and can seriously mess up another human being.

    Don't forget a taser can kill too, as the deceased in Piece County found out today....
    Last edited by Vandal; 08-31-2010 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Would it be wrong of me to point out that it is impossible to shoot someone with a knife? You have to shoot them with a gun. Or am I just grammar obsessed?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrlzBj2lIJg

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Wow!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    You carry a 9mm? I carry a 12 inch!
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    You carry a 9mm? I carry a 12 inch!
    TMI?

    I watched the video and was actually surprised

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    Quote Originally Posted by j2l3 View Post
    Most street people wear to many clothes for a taser to be effective. They require contact with the skin. Many layers of clothes or a heavy jacket will make sure a taser isn't deployed, as it will be a waste of time.
    You do know that the probes of the Taser M26 are capable of penetrating up to two inches of clothing, and that with the XP cartridges, which weigh much more than the standard probes (4.1 grams vs 1.6 grams), that capability is further insured? I'm not saying that the officer should have used a Taser over his pistol, just offering a bit of information.

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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    For anyone asking why gun vs taser.



    http://downtownseattle.komonews.com/...lunged-officer


    When asked why the officer didn't opt to use a Taser on the man instead, Metz said the officer was not equipped with a Taser at the time.
    "However, if he did have a Taser, we do not recommend that our officers use a Taser in a situation like that," he said. "A knife is considered a deadly weapon."


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    You carry a 9mm? I carry a 12 inch!
    Win an IPSC with one of those race knives!
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    You carry a 9mm? I carry a 12 inch!
    At what length does a knife become a sword?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal View Post
    Dave mentioned it, the Tueller Principle holds very true for both LE and civilians when dealing with a knife threat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

    Should be interesting to see if the guy was actually whittling, carving or presenting a threat to the officer. I'll form more of an opinion as I gather more info. Now I'll sit back and let the cop-hate fly.
    Draw your firearm, aim it, and be prepared to shoot.

    Now Tueller is out the window, as it takes only 0.3-0.5 seconds to react, not 1.5. An attacker can probably only cover about 4 feet in 0.5 seconds (not 1/3rd of ~20 feet, or 7 feet, because you have to build up to full speed).

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    Like everyone here I don't know what actually happened in this case, but I would point out that if the mans knife blade was 3.5 inches or smaller, and there was no prior complaint about him doing something illegal with it (like a robbery or threatening someone), then the police officer had no legal reason to confront the man.

    That doesn't mean the officer has no right to approach the man, but if he did so without RAS, then everything that followed was his own fault. Just like with OC of a firearm it is not he police's job to confront people just because they feel like it. Without RAS he should have just observed the guy for a while to make sure there was no reason to be concerned, and maybe made sure the guy knew he had been noticed.

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    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    According to police briefing on the news, the officer was not equipped with a taser. I too am awaiting more facts. Doesn't look that good so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    That doesn't mean the officer has no right to approach the man, but if he did so without RAS, then everything that followed was his own fault. Just like with OC of a firearm it is not he police's job to confront people just because they feel like it. Without RAS he should have just observed the guy for a while to make sure there was no reason to be concerned, and maybe made sure the guy knew he had been noticed.
    I agree. I don't know what led to the police officer approaching this man. I also don't know what led the officer to shoot the man. Did the guy with the knife lunge at him. The officer claimed he "felt threatened" by the man with the knife. I want to know what threats were issued. If it was the mere sight of a knife, then this man isn't fit to be an officer.

    Could he use mace? Could he use a baton and hit the guy's hand over and over again? Does he have any self-defense training against a knife? Could he have at least shot the guy in the leg? It seems like he thought killing him was the only option. If the man with the knife made an advancement on him that seemed life-threatening (which is all perspective anyways), then OK. If he killed him because he wouldn't put the knife down...

    Joe~

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    It is very easy, and very bad form, to second guess decisions made by officers/agents/soldiers in the field.

    A review is necessary to maintain a balance and keep the peace keepers in check... however, none of us or the reporters were on site or witnessed the events.

    Does it sound ridiculous? Yeah, but that's what sells news...

    While there are exceptions to every rule, I do not believe the police make a habit of shooting first and asking questions later. The paperwork alone is enough to make them second guess using lethal force!

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    I agree. I don't know what led to the police officer approaching this man. I also don't know what led the officer to shoot the man. Did the guy with the knife lunge at him. The officer claimed he "felt threatened" by the man with the knife. I want to know what threats were issued. If it was the mere sight of a knife, then this man isn't fit to be an officer.

    Could he use mace? Could he use a baton and hit the guy's hand over and over again? Does he have any self-defense training against a knife? Could he have at least shot the guy in the leg? It seems like he thought killing him was the only option. If the man with the knife made an advancement on him that seemed life-threatening (which is all perspective anyways), then OK. If he killed him because he wouldn't put the knife down...

    Joe~
    We (OCers) do not shoot in the leg. LEO do not train nor are taught to shoot in the leg. There is only one type of shot, center mass, to STOP the threat. Don't let this 'hollywood' argument that the anti's make infiltrate our thinking.

    Three questions:

    Was the suspect armed with a deadly weapon? (I would say yes)

    Was the suspect a threat to the officer or another person? (We don't really know the answer)

    Was the proper force used to STOP the threat? (I would say yes, if the suspect was a threat.)


    I don't like the story, it doesn't seem right. However the 3 questions above will determine the outcome, IMO.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    We (OCers) do not shoot in the leg. LEO do not train nor are taught to shoot in the leg. There is only one type of shot, center mass, to STOP the threat. Don't let this 'hollywood' argument that the anti's make infiltrate our thinking.

    Three questions:

    Was the suspect armed with a deadly weapon? (I would say yes)

    Was the suspect a threat to the officer or another person? (We don't really know the answer)

    Was the proper force used to STOP the threat? (I would say yes, if the suspect was a threat.)


    I don't like the story, it doesn't seem right. However the 3 questions above will determine the outcome, IMO.
    You are not the only one that doesn't like it. Seems like there were three witnesses to the event that didn't see it at all the same way the officer did. A two-year officer may well have "stepped in it". Has even changed his initial account of the event after the witnesses were interviewed. This incident has all the characteristics of dog doo-doo. This officer has stepped in it, it's going to stick to his shoe for a long time, and will smell terrible whenever the heat is turned on.

    Let's see how it turns out.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    We (OCers) do not shoot in the leg. LEO do not train nor are taught to shoot in the leg. There is only one type of shot, center mass, to STOP the threat. Don't let this 'hollywood' argument that the anti's make infiltrate our thinking.

    Three questions:

    Was the suspect armed with a deadly weapon? (I would say yes)

    Was the suspect a threat to the officer or another person? (We don't really know the answer)

    Was the proper force used to STOP the threat? (I would say yes, if the suspect was a threat.)


    I don't like the story, it doesn't seem right. However the 3 questions above will determine the outcome, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    You are not the only one that doesn't like it. Seems like there were three witnesses to the event that didn't see it at all the same way the officer did. A two-year officer may well have "stepped in it". Has even changed his initial account of the event after the witnesses were interviewed. This incident has all the characteristics of dog doo-doo. This officer has stepped in it, it's going to stick to his shoe for a long time, and will smell terrible whenever the heat is turned on.

    Let's see how it turns out.
    While I do not like the story, I want to add that 'eye witness' accounts are the LEAST RELIABLE of any accounts of evidence.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Radio today said the guy was carrying a naked blade. I think that could be considered brandishing. But who knows which direction this will all go.

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    Maybe the deceased didn't respond to the officer's commands because he couldn't hear/understand them. People who knew him allege that he was deaf in his left ear and also had a propensity for wearing headphones.

    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/102010323.html

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