Warning Shots ( Imaginary scenario)

.45acp said:

Some say that you should not let a knife wielding attacker with a 21' radius. The reasoning is an attacker can cover 21' faster than a person reacts and fires 1 shot.

Click to expand...

When I took my first pistol class at Gunsite (1999), they demonstrated the 21' rule by having us face the target with another student standing behind us touching our back with their hand. That student was instructed to remove his hand from our back and run like hell to the back of the range (behind us). The removal of his hand from my back was the "go" signal to draw and shoot the target in front of me. The minimum distance covered by the runner in this scenario was 21'.

Bear in mind that we all knew what was coming and we were ready to grab our guns the moment we got the signal and they still made it at LEAST 21'.

Now, put yourself in a knife vs gun scenario in the real world. Even in Condition Yellow, by the time your brain registers the threat coming at you with a knife, he's already covered lots of ground. By the time you get your gun out of the holster, you are probably mortally wounded and incapacitated.

Fred

Fred thanks for that info on Front Sight...I might consider going next time AZCDL does a trip now (I prefer to "try" or at least read testimonials before I drop that kind of coin).

To Citizen: a few thoughts:
-Police are different. I'm sure rules of engagement vary by agency, but for them most part LEOs can go one step higher on the force continuum when combating force presented against. Plus, and IANAL, but I'm pretty sure most LEOs are given the benefit of the doubt if it comes down to it. Has anyone ever heard of an LEO getting sued for brandishing? Thought not.
-As far as clearing your own home, well, that goes off course from the OP's hypothetical. In your house you can light your stove with a flamethrower if you want. I have gone through my house at low ready in the past when I heard a weird noise or my motion lights popped on. If it's your property you can do whatever you want. However, in the OP's post the two actors were on public property.
-On that last point about brandishing, I re-read it and what you put and I think I didn't articulate that very well. As far as your example with the car jack, that would definitely be a "reasonable" time to draw.

Here I will reference the JAM model (or AOJ as some call it): JEOPARDY, ABILITY, AND MEANS.

Jeopardy - the other person's actions or words provide you with a reasonably-perceived belief that he intends to kill you cause grievous bodily injury
Ability - the person has the ability to use the his means of attack against you
Means - the person has the means to kill or cause g.b.i

So, in your car jack situation, J (yes, a car jack will f you up) + A (the person is able-bodied, coming towards you, and capable of lifting/manipulating the jack) + M (the person is close enough or getting close enough to use it).

To be sure, no one gets free hits. You don't have to wait until you're hit once with the jack to shoot. And in that same situation I would definitely draw.

Re-reading the original thread, I guess here is a better answer: if the guy presents his knife and you draw and he just stands there, you BACK AWAY. I was re-reading ARS and Korwin's book; this could *possibly* be construed as the knife dude's "Withdrawal" from the conflict (making you the agressor).

Doesn't have to make sense, it's just the law.

ETA: Here is a pretty good article on AOJ/JAM, and a good site all around, especially for women shooters or convincing the wife/girlfriend to like your guns: http://corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

Front Sight

Phoenix David said:

Front Sight is having a special on it's mid week Four Day Defensive Handgun Course for only $89
http://www.frontsight.com/courses/defensive-handgun-training-course.asp

Click to expand...

They started the offer at $69 and now raised it to $89. It'll probably end real soon, once they have determined they sold enough to fill the new classes.

This is Front Sight's first venture into weekday classes. They've been growing like mad, adding new ranges and recruitng more instructors. When I took a class in March, they had 800 students at the facility that weekend.

If you've never been to Front Sight, I strongly recommend grabbing the $89 deal. That's $89 for a $2,000 class. The class runs over 40 hours over 4 days. The focus of the class is fundamentals.

By the end of the class you'll take a skills test in both shooting and malfunctions & relaoding. For body shots, they have to be in the thoracic (heart & lung area) cavity. For head shots they have to be in the ocular cavity (about the size of a 3x5 card). You'll wear a cover garment (vest or shirt) over your gun for the test. The shooting test starts at 3 yards and goes to 15 or 25 yards depending on the range. At 7 yards, you have 2.1 seconds to get a controlled pair into the thoracic cavity, starting from a holstered gun under your shirt or vest. You'll be amazed at the skill level you attain by the end of the class. Even if you blow the test you'll still be better than you every thought you could be.

It's the cheapest you'll ever pay for an incredible training experience.

Full disclosure - I have had a membership in Front Sight for over 5 years and take 2-3 classes there every year.

Fred

Where is the special? I don't see in on that page...

mFonz77 said:

Where is the special? I don't see in on that page...

Click to expand...

Here is the link:
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-si...ght-40-hours-of-live-handgun-training-for-89/

It's a steal. I've taken the class at least 3 times, mainly because I'm bringing someone new to Front Sight. Each time I have an "aha!" moment and learn something new. The focus is on shoot-and-move fundamentals ala Jeff Cooper. It is NOT Rambo school or a military basic training scream fest. It is training for adults by adults. You will also get an introduction to shooting with a flashlight. They show how to correctly go through doorways followed by a house clearing exercise. They also put you in a home invasion scenario. For fun there is a "man-on-man" competition on the 3rd day.

Safety is paramount. Some students have never shot a gun before. Many others think they know how to shoot, but don't. Each day starts at 7:30 AM. If you're not there, they start without you.

On the first day, you'll fire your first shot by around 10 AM. From there the pace picks up. Eventually you're dealing with turning targets. Turning speed is ramped up over the remaining days until by the 4th day they are at test speeds. By the 3rd day, a cover garment is required. You are tested in the afternoon of the 4th day. The test is only an indicator of your skill level. A high score is only necessary for those wanting to take advanced classes.

Range time is broken up by an excellent classroom lecture series, one of which deals with moral, ethical and legal issues involving shooting someone. They use the cops taking classes to demonstrate what will happen to you when the cops arrive on the scene while you're holding the smoking gun over the dead body.

For $89 it's an incredible deal, even if you never take another course.

Fred

Wow, awesome. Just ordered it. The no expiration date won me over. If I would have had to try to work it in by a certain time I would've almost certainly've had to pass...

mFonz77 said:

Wow, awesome. Just ordered it. The no expiration date won me over. If I would have had to try to work it in by a certain time I would've almost certainly've had to pass...

Click to expand...

Excellent! You won't be disappointed. Feel free to contact me (here or at treasurer@azcdl.org) for any tips on places to stay, gear to bring, ammo requirements (no relaods allowed), etc.

I don't recommend taking a revolver, unless you don't mind leaving a lot of your unusued ammo in the dirt.

Fred

I have one question I'll ask publicly since I feel it would benefit others on the board: would completion of this course make one eligible to apply for a non-resident NV CCW? That's something I've had my eye on lately and it would be great to kill two birds with one Glock (i mean, stone)

I took my first Front Sight course in May, bought my membership after completing the class. I have 3 classes later this year already scheduled.

mFonz77 said:

I have one question I'll ask publicly since I feel it would benefit others on the board: would completion of this course make one eligible to apply for a non-resident NV CCW? That's something I've had my eye on lately and it would be great to kill two birds with one Glock (i mean, stone)

Click to expand...

The answer is "almost."

Front Sight offers an NV CCW class as a 5 day package. First you take the 4 day class then you take the one day CCW class:
http://www.frontsight.com/courses/concealed-weapons-permit-course.asp .
The course gives you all you need to get NV, UT and FL permits.

It's part of my membership package and I take advantage of it. The first time I took the CCW course there were 10 students. The last time I took it (March 2010) there were over 200 students. Because all the shooting fundamentals were covered in the preceding 4 days, the 5th day is spent on fullfilling the classroom requirements, written tests, and the extremely easy NV shooting test. I was out of there by 3 PM and that included all the fingerprinting and picture taking requirements.

Front Sight has an ongoing special that includes the 5 day class, plus a Springfield XD pistol, plus most of the gear you need, plus some other goodies for $1,499:
https://www.frontsight.com/free-gun.asp .

Since you have the weekday $89 class, you might want to look for a CCW class to take locally on Friday, after Front Sight, and then drop your paperwork off at the Nye County sheriff near where you'll be staying. Odds are you'll save money that way.

On the other hand, I bet Front Sight will allow you to upgrade

Fred

mFonz77 said:

it would be great to kill two birds with one Glock (i mean, stone)

Click to expand...

Glad to see you mentioned Glock. They work well in these type of classes.

Like most, I've gone through the quest for the perfect gun for me. I learned in Gunsite and Front Sight classes that having a gun with a consistent trigger is a big benefit. At Gunsite I used a 1911. I have since lost my appetite for external levers and safeties. It's a personal thing.

I thought it was only me when I took a class using a DA/SA pistol but my observation after many classes is that it seems fairly universal. DA/SA pistols with changing trigger pulls and distance between the first and second shots, pretty much guarantee a lousy second shot when you're pushing against the clock. Like I said, it's a personal thing, and not meant to disparage any gun. I have a friend who thinks Glocks should be outlawed.

My 2 cents,
Fred

mFonz77 said:

SNIP Police are different. I'm sure rules of engagement vary by agency, but for them most part LEOs can go one step higher on the force continuum when combating force presented against. Plus, and IANAL, but I'm pretty sure most LEOs are given the benefit of the doubt if it comes down to it.

Click to expand...

I don't know that the police differences are nearly as important as the similarities.

The force continuum training for police--go one notch up--is as much to train officers to not respond with excessive force, as it is to train them to overcome someone. It doesn't take any training to teach anybody to go to maximum force at the first sign of any resistance.

Also, I think the key factor is the restraint on police imposed by Garner. One notch up or not, Garner still effectively means police cannot shoot to apprehend except in certain circumstances, thus the frequent low-ready presentations we see in video are not in preparation to shoot to apprehend, but are mostly in preparation for defense of self and others.

Plus, the numerous stories of citizens presenting without shooting and the bad guy running away--without the citizen being prosecuted.

I've never heard of a citizen being prosecuted for presenting when the situation called for being ready. To me, the brandishing statutes are clearly aimed at threatening others when there is no reason.

I think the total picture makes it reasonable to present in certain circumstances without firing. A nasty prosecutor may make hay out of it; but that does not mean it is the norm. Otherwise, many of those anectdotes we read would end with the citizen charged with brandishing.

if hes just standing there, i would back up and retreat if i can do it safely... firing a warning shot is "using force", If i was a prosecuritor i would argue that you must not have been in fear for your life because you "knowingly" discharged your weapon in a manner that you knew had a 0% chance of striking your attacker. and therefore it was a "Negligent discharge"

i really hope people just arent carrying without training and knowledge of the laws.

Citizen said:

I don't know that the police differences are nearly as important as the similarities.

The force continuum training for police--go one notch up--is as much to train officers to not respond with excessive force, as it is to train them to overcome someone. It doesn't take any training to teach anybody to go to maximum force at the first sign of any resistance.

Also, I think the key factor is the restraint on police imposed by Garner. One notch up or not, Garner still effectively means police cannot shoot to apprehend except in certain circumstances, thus the frequent low-ready presentations we see in video are not in preparation to shoot to apprehend, but are mostly in preparation for defense of self and others.

Plus, the numerous stories of citizens presenting without shooting and the bad guy running away--without the citizen being prosecuted.

I've never heard of a citizen being prosecuted for presenting when the situation called for being ready. To me, the brandishing statutes are clearly aimed at threatening others when there is no reason.

I think the total picture makes it reasonable to present in certain circumstances without firing. A nasty prosecutor may make hay out of it; but that does not mean it is the norm. Otherwise, many of those anectdotes we read would end with the citizen charged with brandishing.

Click to expand...

I think we're on the same page now. Well articulated. Presenting without firing is totally different from the OP's "warning shot," which I think we've all agreed is a no-no.

Hiredgun30 said:

if hes just standing there, i would back up and retreat if i can do it safely... firing a warning shot is "using force", If i was a prosecuritor i would argue that you must not have been in fear for your life because you "knowingly" discharged your weapon in a manner that you knew had a 0% chance of striking your attacker. and therefore it was a "Negligent discharge"

i really hope people just arent carrying without training and knowledge of the laws.

Click to expand...

Knowing the laws is critical. The man in Gilbert who was assaulted coming out of a store at a gas station when he was hit with a wrench and a man stole his beer. He was able to retreat to his vehicle and he then retrieved his gun reentered the situation and ended up killing his attacker all the while claiming self defense. He is now charged with 2nd degree murder. Knowing the law is critical, it is the difference between going home or going to jail after an incident. On the subject, warning shots are a bad idea...

Warning shot is only useful if there are multiple attackers, you shoot the nearest one with the knife to warn the others to stop. If you have time to carry on a conversation, you have time to withdraw from the encounter.

Do you want the police having a tape of you carrying on a conversation, and trying to talk the dead guy out of it, or the criminal intent followed by 2 load bangs within a second of the threat. Well why didn't you ask about his mother, instead of shooting him after only a minute of talking?

Now a better question would be if it is OK to throw your wallet to the left where you have a safer backstop for engaging the BG, or can the game warden get you for baiting the field that way.

Biggest thought I have had to wrestle with is if the BG has a gun and robs you, can you draw down on his back if you are 100% sure he will be coming back, or do you have to wait till he is coming back and has the drop on you. It is only a 0.0000001% probability of ever happening, but it is there.

Citizen said:

I've never heard of a citizen being prosecuted for presenting when the situation called for being ready. To me, the brandishing statutes are clearly aimed at threatening others when there is no reason.

Click to expand...

Between 1997 and 2006, Arizona statutes were "guilty until proven innocent." In essence you had to admit to the crime then prove yourself innocent to a jury with the prosecutor controlling all the evidence. You could easily be prosecuted for presenting. This came to an ugly head when Harold Fish was convicted for murder during the act of self defense.

In 2006 we (AzCDL and others) got "innocent until proven guilty" restored in Arizona, then in 2009, we got "defensive display" into the statutes, giving gun owners a legal defense for difusing a bad situation without firing a shot.

Fred

Craig_M said:

Knowing the laws is critical. The man in Gilbert who was assaulted coming out of a store at a gas station when he was hit with a wrench and a man stole his beer. He was able to retreat to his vehicle and he then retrieved his gun reentered the situation and ended up killing his attacker all the while claiming self defense. He is now charged with 2nd degree murder. Knowing the law is critical, it is the difference between going home or going to jail after an incident. On the subject, warning shots are a bad idea...

Click to expand...

Just got a twitter message that the Gilbert police ruled the shooting as justified. Will post the link as soon as it is available.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...le-k-killing-beer-robbery-justified-abrk.html

warning shots are NEVER a good thing....

A warning shot is only for the moves. It would be illegally discharging your weapon.