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Warning Shots ( Imaginary scenario)

exelci

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Warning Shots ( Imaginary Scenario)

Lets say your walking out of your local grocery store (or what ever) and this BG comes up to you and pulls out a knife and demands your car keys and "WALLET" (that's when you would GO for your weapon) point the gun at him (since he has now threatened you with a deadly weapon & its now legal to do so) tell him to DROP HIS WEAPON!! & GET ON THE GROUND !.. After that.. What if he refuses To Drop his weapon and just stands there looking at you, and you can notice him thinking.. (probably drugged out) Should i attack him? i don't think he would shoot..

Then What?
I would prefer to fire a warning shot to let him know i don't f^ck around (wich should be enough for him to come back from his trip, .45 ACP goes BANG! LOUD!!) but is that legal? maybe if there's a good backstop like a big trash can or something like that ?

i don't find it any better to just wait for him to attack me, and me having to kill this BG..


Before any one mentions it.. he never noticed you had a gun until it was pointed at him.
And yes im in the arizona forum so, i live in Arizona.
 
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flb_78

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Generally, warning shots are a bad idea. If the warning shot were to ricochet and hit an innocent or damage property, you would be liable.

If one is going to carry a gun, they need to be prepared to use it as it was intended, otherwise the gun very well could be taken and used against them.
 

lowlander91

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Since he is close enough to hold you at knife point he is close enough to stab you before you draw. If you do draw and give him demands he still has enough time to stab you. If I had a knife close enough to stab some one they pull a gun and fire a warning shot I would be thinking o **** they missed time to stab this a hole. So in this scenario if I was able to draw on him I would fire if I legitimately thought he was going to kill me. I don't see a reason to give some one who is going to kill you any extra time to kill you . There are no rules in a gun fight so I don't believe in warning shots. If cops don't give warning shots why would I.
 

Sonora Rebel

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The knife is already presented... there's the immediate threat. Forget the TV melodrama. Shoot the sumbitch ASAP. Mag dump his ass. Don't stand there and jabber about it. If you're not gonna pull... don't carry the gun.
 

GWbiker

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The knife is already presented... there's the immediate threat. Forget the TV melodrama. Shoot the sumbitch ASAP. Mag dump his ass. Don't stand there and jabber about it. If you're not gonna pull... don't carry the gun.

+1.
 

mFonz77

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If you fire a warning shot (especially if you're also carrying less-than-lethal) any prosecutor worth his salt will make a compelling argument that you did not legitimately feel threatened with loss of life or grievous bodily injury, ie, you didn't feel the need to shoot the fool in order to save your own life. In that vein, even though you're still alive you'll get charged with discharge within city limits, and if it hits someone, you'll get nailed with aggravated assault.

Read up on the defensive display statutes, recently passed into law in AZ as of Aug 2009 (I think, maybe Sept.) This further reduces the perceived need for a warning shot (though not for your hypothetical; the knife has already been presented).

I'm not much on armchair quarterbacking these but they're fun for visualization purposes, so, my .02:
A) Why did you let ANYONE that you don't know get that close to you. They get within my comfort zone and their body language says "threat" I either have an LED flashlight pointing in their eyes or my hand on my grip.
B) If the gun comes out and you do not fire you are theoretically brandishing. Defensive display covers verbally informing, or hand on grip, or breaking concealment, NOT drawing down.
C) Ergo, following B above, if you slap leather you better be ready to shoot.
D) You didn't specify, but as this is the OC forum, if a dude comes up to you with a knife out and you're OC'ing, it is perfectly reasonable to assume he is whacked out of this world. Shoot.
 
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Superlite27

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The only acceptable use for the bullets in your firearm is to protect your life when presented with a reasonable threat to life or limb.

Any jury will hang you for firing warning shots as you evidently were not in immediate danger.

You had time to fire a warning shot, right?

Reminds me of the guy here in St. Louis who was standing behind a guy in White Castle who decided to rob the place.

Robber pulls out gun and points it at the clerk.

CCW holder pulls weapon, and "as seen on T.V." yells "FREEZE!"

Robber turns and puts 3 bullets into CCW holder. (Luckily, he lived.)

Warnings work real good at 1) getting you in trouble 2) getting you killed.
 

exelci

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im not saying..

the knife is already presented... There's the immediate threat. Forget the tv melodrama. Shoot the sumbitch asap. Mag dump his ass. Don't stand there and jabber about it. If you're not gonna pull... Don't carry the gun.



I'm not saying i wouldn't shoot the guy or that i don't feel capable of defending my self or my family. "its an imaginary scenario" i was thinking maybe one of you would say "carry pepper spray" or something like that.. Its not about shooting him or NOT its about "Options" "USING A HIGHER VOICE" maybe start talking Sh!t to him. "INTIMIDATION TACTICS" (if theres such a thing)

and he (the BG) dos'nt necessarily need to be 2 steps in front of the GG.

and yea i know a person can travel 20 feet in 3.4 seconds.. (something like that. the point is not to consider the distance between you and him (BG) just react! )
 
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protector84

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Sounds like you need some self defense training. Sure, there are different options for different scenarios. However, when one points a knife at you (which is a deadly weapon) and threatens you with it, the best option is to draw a handgun and fire enough shots into the center of mass of the attacker until both the attacker and the knife are on the ground and no longer moving. Emergency situations like this leave you with mere seconds to think and react. You don't have time to argue with him or think of other options. He threatened your life with a deadly weapon. You end his. Problem solved.
 

azcdlfred

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I would prefer to fire a warning shot to let him know i don't f^ck around (wich should be enough for him to come back from his trip, .45 ACP goes BANG! LOUD!!) but is that legal? maybe if there's a good backstop like a big trash can or something like that ?
1. If you fire a warning shot, you have just demonstrated to the police, prosecuting attorney, judge and jury that you did not feel threatened enough in this situtation to defend yourself. You are now the bad guy.

2. Firing the warning shot demonstrated to the bad guy that you aren't serious, plus you just wasted valuable time.

3. You just wasted a round that you might really need. Remember the 50% rule - you will only be 1/2 as good in a real situation as your last day at the range.

4. You are responsible for every round that leaves your gun. It's like each bullet has an attorney attached eager to sue you for hurting someone or damaging their property. Remember the basic rule - know your target and what is line with it.

5. The time to make a decision to shoot is made BEFORE the gun comes out of the hoslter.

CARDINAL RULE: If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth shooting for. Even firing a warning shot will change your life forever and all in very negative ways. If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth shooting for.

Fred
 
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azcdlfred

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Sounds like you need some self defense training
The ads to Front Sight are all over this website. I have been going there for over 5 years and highly recommend it. They go over scenarios like the one on this thread in the 4-day pistol class. You can pick up a certificate for a 4-day pistol class on eBay for about $200. Even if you never go back, you'll be at a very high skill level.

Here is Arizona, Gunsite is in Paulden. I've been there. They are very good. They teach the same fundamentals as Front Sight, but I prefer Front Sight and the ability to have a membership.

Training is critical and it never stops.

Fred
 

Phoenix David

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Front Sight is having a special on it's mid week Four Day Defensive Handgun Course for only $89

http://www.frontsight.com/courses/defensive-handgun-training-course.asp

Back to the topic - If someone presents to me a deadly weapon, based on my experience, training and understanding of the self defense laws a reasonable person would be in fear of their life or of serious bodily harm and I would be justified in using force up to and including deadly force to stop the attack.

Nor would I give a verbal warning of my intentions when they are on top of me, the time for the verbal warning/challenge is when they are coming my way and due to the fact that my SA is always yellow when I am out and about odds are I will be aware of them before they are on top of me and I can take what ever defensive actions I need. But if for some reason I am caught off-guard, see above.
 

exelci

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good.. good

1. If you fire a warning shot, you have just demonstrated to the police, prosecuting attorney, judge and jury that you did not feel threatened enough in this situtation to defend yourself. You are now the bad guy.

2. Firing the warning shot demonstrated to the bad guy that you aren't serious, plus you just wasted valuable time.

3. You just wasted a round that you might really need. Remember the 50% rule - you will only be 1/2 as good in a real situation as your last day at the range.

4. You are responsible for every round that leaves your gun. It's like each bullet has an attorney attached eager to sue you for hurting someone or damaging their property. Remember the basic rule - know your target and what is line with it.

5. The time to make a decision to shoot is made BEFORE the gun comes out of the hoslter.

CARDINAL RULE: If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth shooting for. Even firing a warning shot will change your life forever and all in very negative ways. If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth shooting for.

Fred


+1
 

.45acp

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+ one on the above post



Some say that you should not let a knife wielding attacker with a 21' radius. The reasoning is an attacker can cover 21' faster than a person reacts and fires 1 shot.

How fast can you clear leather and fire 2 rounds on a low fast moving target. Now think about how fast a young guy can cover 21' with surprise on his side.

At 8 or 10 feet the odds are a knife wielding attacker will get steel into you before you can shoot him off. There are a number of vids that demonstrate this very well. Within knife range, you need to be shooting the attacker...not some stinking garbage can. A firearm is not a threat, a firearm is a threat resolution tool.

IMO


Steve
 
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Citizen

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the OP
To answer the OPers question, "then what?": Most, if not all of the self-defense authorities will tell you distance is your friend, as is cover.

If you choose to present, rather than shoot, move away.

I would be inclined to present and back away myself if the situation seemed to permit it with a knife robber. Or maybe move quickly laterally towards a parked car or something while drawing and presenting

By not actually attacking, the knife robber has put himself behind my action/reaction curve.

If I can avoid actually shooting someone, I also avoid the police investigation, the possible arrest while police sort things out, having my gun seized, legal bills, and legal jeopardy if the prosecutor decides maybe it wasn't a self-defense shooting.

While some criminals might be so hopped up on PCP or meth they think my presented gun can be ignored, I'm guessing that the majority of them are plenty scared of holes in their skin.
 

Citizen

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SNIP If the gun comes out and you do not fire you are theoretically brandishing. Defensive display covers verbally informing, or hand on grip, or breaking concealment, NOT drawing down.

I've heard and read such, too; but I am not so sure about this anymore. Police do it regularly in this country--draw before any actual need to shoot manifests.

Remember, police are very restricted in shooting criminals. After, Tennessee vs Garner, policeare limited to using guns mainly for self-defense and stopping felons dangerous to the community. In light of Garner the low-ready's we see so often in videos are not to apprehend the criminal, but to be ready sooner to defend themselves in case the criminal escalates to lethal force.

Also, if you were clearing your own home, would you leave the gun in the holster to avoid a brandishing charge? Thousands of homes have been cleared with guns in hand, by both police and homeowners--even though no criminal offering lethal force is in sight. I'm not discussing Castle Doctrine here; I'm using this as another example of how it can be very wise to have the gun in hand even though there is no actual need to shoot, yet--to shorten the reaction time in case it really does become necessary.

Of course, one would not draw just because someone was talking smack.

Also, gun magazines are full of "brandishings" by citizens who didn't fire, for example Combat Handguns column It Happened to Me. One that comes to mind, maybe from that magazine, was the story of a fella being followed too closely. The follower got impatient. The citizen pulled over. The follower got out of his vehicle and picked up a jack. Not a jack handle--a jack! And, started walking towards the citizen's vehicle in a rage. The citizen drew his large revolver, got out, and pointed it at the jack-man, who promptly melted into a wimpering apologist, quickly got back in his vehicle, and drove off.

I think the latest edition of that magazine has the story of a female convenience store clerk who drew on three bad guys who were making verbal threats, maybe to include a knife. They promptly left. No shots, just a "brandishing" on her part, plus a few choice words or commands.
 
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Snakemathis

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As pertaining to your question about less-than-lethal weapons, I do NOT carry less-than-lethal while I am carrying my handgun. Its either a fist fight or a shoot out. If you have a tazer on you but you shoot a guy with a knife instead of tazing him, you were justified to do so, but the defense lawyer is gonna rip you a new one because you didnt exercise all of your options. I look at less-than-lethal as more of a liability. If you dont try it, your screwed; if you do and it doesnt work, your screwed. If you dont have it as an option, you cant catch any BS in court for your use, or lack there of, of the less-than-lethal. Just my opinion.
YMMV
IANAL
 

exelci

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Exactly..

the OP
To answer the OPers question, "then what?": Most, if not all of the self-defense authorities will tell you distance is your friend, as is cover.

If you choose to present, rather than shoot, move away.

I would be inclined to present and back away myself if the situation seemed to permit it with a knife robber. Or maybe move quickly laterally towards a parked car or something while drawing and presenting

By not actually attacking, the knife robber has put himself behind my action/reaction curve.

If I can avoid actually shooting someone, I also avoid the police investigation, the possible arrest while police sort things out, having my gun seized, legal bills, and legal jeopardy if the prosecutor decides maybe it wasn't a self-defense shooting.

While some criminals might be so hopped up on PCP or meth they think my presented gun can be ignored, I'm guessing that the majority of them are plenty scared of holes in their skin.


10+

That was exactly my point ! Not all of us dream of killing anybody even if its a BG (IF YOU CAN AVOID IT OF COURSE) if he had a gun it would be a totally different storie..
 

exelci

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There We Go..

I've heard and read such, too; but I am not so sure about this anymore. Police do it regularly in this country--draw before any actual need to shoot manifests.

Remember, police are very restricted in shooting criminals. After, Tennessee vs Garner, policeare limited to using guns mainly for self-defense and stopping felons dangerous to the community. In light of Garner the low-ready's we see so often in videos are not to apprehend the criminal, but to be ready sooner to defend themselves in case the criminal escalates to lethal force.

Also, if you were clearing your own home, would you leave the gun in the holster to avoid a brandishing charge? Thousands of homes have been cleared with guns in hand, by both police and homeowners--even though no criminal offering lethal force is in sight. I'm not discussing Castle Doctrine here; I'm using this as another example of how it can be very wise to have the gun in hand even though there is no actual need to shoot, yet--to shorten the reaction time in case it really does become necessary.

Of course, one would not draw just because someone was talking smack.

Also, gun magazines are full of "brandishings" by citizens who didn't fire, for example Combat Handguns column It Happened to Me. One that comes to mind, maybe from that magazine, was the story of a fella being followed too closely. The follower got impatient. The citizen pulled over. The follower got out of his vehicle and picked up a jack. Not a jack handle--a jack! And, started walking towards the citizen's vehicle in a rage. The citizen drew his large revolver, got out, and pointed it at the jack-man, who promptly melted into a wimpering apologist, quickly got back in his vehicle, and drove off.

I think the latest edition of that magazine has the story of a female convenience store clerk who drew on three bad guys who were making verbal threats, maybe to include a knife. They promptly left. No shots, just a "brandishing" on her part, plus a few choice words or commands.



+1 Good Info.. thanx
 
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