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Thread: Permits question

  1. #1
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    Permits question

    When I first heard about OC I was, like many people hearing about it for the first time with whom I've spoken, (pleasantly) surprised to learn no permits were required. As things will hopefully change on the Concealed Carry front come November, I've been thinking about permits again. So my question isn't about CC permits, or OC permits, but permits for carrying in general.

    Initially I wasn't opposed to permits and even some sort of training class/certification/occasional recertification in order to carry. I've slowly been coming around to the side that no permits/training/etc should be required at all so long as you're a citizen who can legally own a handgun. And I totally see that side of the argument.

    I guess right now I'm sort of on the fence between those two positions. I'd like to hear arguments (civil arguments, please) for both sides.

    Where I'm at right now is that permits/training/etc shouldn't be required, but personally training and even re-training every year/couple years/five years is something I'd do just for my own comfort, etc. Training that would include both instructed shooting time (though I know shooting on our own is something we need to do - I don't want to get into that argument) and information about changes in the laws, etc. Again, not required, but something I'd do for my own personal satisfaction.

    Or should permits and training be two separate issues? Permits aren't necessary, but a Concealed Carry course of some kind is? But then, isn't that a de facto permit?

    I'd like to know what others thoughts on this whole issue is...

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    My thoughts are well worn. Voluntary training is just like any other arguably expensive hobby, great if you can afford it. But then snake-oil salesmen show up selling empty promises AND BUYING votes for mandatory training as prerequisite to carry. We had a loong tempest here when Gene German tried to promote his American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors here, Wisconsin Patriots, Wisconsin Wheelmen, WI-FORCE, Wisconsin self protection and individual freedom ash-hauling society - all are standing around with their hands out.

    I know whereof I speak. I was required to complete NRA instructors training as prerequisite to South Carolina Concealed Weapons Permit Instructor certification. There are plenty of CWP instructors now but not many speaking out against the NRA as selling indulgences from the infringements to the 2A as their business.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-31-2010 at 04:05 PM.

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    This has been discussed ad nauseum but in the interests of being "civil" I will venture a response.

    We will never get constitutional carry... at least not right away and without a fight.

    Permitting is the only way to gain recipriocity with other states in order to carry there unless the Fedguv decides to get in on the process and standardize permitting such as what is done with state drivers licenses, which none of us want.

    So while constitutionalists (which I am one, naysayers to the contrary) can debate all day about it, permitting has its benefits. Yes you give a few more bucks to the state but when don't we? It seems like everything we do costs money and we are going to draw the line here and say no more taxes or fees?

    Your only alternative in that day will be to break the law and carry concealed without a permit and hope you don't get caught.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 08-31-2010 at 04:28 PM.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    The Don. I think the only way you'd be able to require training is to require a permit. I also believe that several states will only recognize your state's permit if a training component is required.

    That being said, unlike Spartacus, I believe we have a decent (> 50%) chance of getting CC in WI in the next 12 months. That is what I am pushing for and have been and will browbeat my elected officials for such.

    I will settle, however, for licensing and a training requirement if need be. I do not want to give up any oc rights, however.

    My argument is and will be something to the effect that the people of WI have a right to cc and oc and since we all need smaller government there is no reason to create a bureaucracy to implement that, especially since AK, VT and AZ have been successful.

    Key: CC=Constitutional Carry, cc=concealed carry, oc=open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Key: CC=Constitutional Carry, cc=concealed carry, oc=open carry.
    Thanks Paul, I'll use that key in the future.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    Thanks Paul, I'll use that key in the future.
    I actually got that from Doug and it seemed like a good idea to me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I actually got that from Doug and it seemed like a good idea to me!
    Then thanks to Doug, too.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Don:


    First, as others have stated, mandated training is in-and-of-itself, a permit of sort. What about those who cannot afford $200 or more of training, do we deny the right?


    Second, the SCOTUS has now incorporated the 2nd to the states. From where I see it, permits can no longer be required because (voting, speech, church, having children) are all “fundamental rights” that do not require permit, likewise, firearms ownership and possession shouldn't either.


    As to no-permit CCW, it IS in the GOP platform. If we elect them, and they abandon the platform, then regardless how painful, we kick them all out in the next election for lying to us.


    If WI goes the way of a new bureaucracy, larger government, and more taxes with a GOP governor and legislature, then there really is NO HOPE or CHANGE in WI. Pertaining to firearms ownership and possession, WI has NEVER REQUIRED a permit/training EVER, why do we want to start now?


    SCOTUS == Supreme Court Of The United States

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    The Don. I think the only way you'd be able to require training is to require a permit. I also believe that several states will only recognize your state's permit if a training component is required.

    That being said, unlike Spartacus, I believe we have a decent (> 50%) chance of getting CC in WI in the next 12 months. That is what I am pushing for and have been and will browbeat my elected officials for such.

    I will settle, however, for licensing and a training requirement if need be. I do not want to give up any oc rights, however.

    My argument is and will be something to the effect that the people of WI have a right to cc and oc and since we all need smaller government there is no reason to create a bureaucracy to implement that, especially since AK, VT and AZ have been successful.

    Key: CC=Constitutional Carry, cc=concealed carry, oc=open carry.
    It poses an interesting thought as to whether or not the other states will recognize ones right to carry from one of the Constitutional Carry states.

    I have seen nothing on this as of yet, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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    A blast from the past, from the groove yard of forgotten favorites

    Print as wallet card. Notarize if desired. Laminate after signatures. Copyright © DBH
    ================================================== ==========
    The undersigned certifies that the four precepts of safe gun handling are understood and memorized; LOADED[1], MUZZLE[2], TRIGGER[3], TARGET[4] and that firing a gun requires violation of one or more of these precepts of safe gun handling. Footnotes overleaf.

    The undersigned certifies that the four elements of common-law self-defense are understood and memorized; 1) be innocent of instigation, 2) be in reasonable fear of bodily harm, 3) use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil, 4) attempt to withdraw. The undersigned acknowledges that local statutes may further restrict or expand common law.

    I,________________ certify this day, __________________ that the above is true

    Signed:
    ========================OVERLEAF================== ==========
    [1] LOADED- All guns are LOADED until they are not, proven to the satisfaction of all involved.

    [2] MUZZLE - Cover with the MUZZLE only that which would be destroyed.

    [3] TRIGGER - Keep your finger off the TRIGGER. Keep YOUR finger off the TRIGGER.

    [4] TARGET - Know your TARGET and what is beyond.

    One or more of these precepts of safe gun handling MUST BE VIOLATED to fire a gun.
    ================================================== ==========
    There, you're certified in accordance with Wisconsin Statutes and Administrative Regulations on 03/21/2010

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    It poses an interesting thought as to whether or not the other states will recognize ones right to carry from one of the Constitutional Carry states.

    I have seen nothing on this as of yet, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
    Well, all we have to do is look at VT. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/vermont.pdf The only state that recognizes the VT 'permit' (no such thing) is AZ and AK.

    Personally, I don't care! I want WI to be a CC state and if I want to carry in another state then I'll get an out of state permit from MN or UT or FL.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 08-31-2010 at 05:28 PM. Reason: Added out of state CC comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Well, all we have to do is look at VT. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/vermont.pdf The only state that recognizes the VT 'permit' (no such thing) is AZ and AK.

    Personally, I don't care! I want WI to be a CC state and if I want to carry in another state then I'll get an out of state permit from MN or UT or FL.
    I agree, I think as more and more states adopt Constitutional Carry it will become more accepted even in reciprocity.

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    I suggest that people read in more detail the new Arizona gun crry laws that just went into effect in the last few days. I have posted the new concealed carry law on a different thread. In short as I understand it so far. Any law abiding citizen of Arizona over the age of 20 can open and/or conceal carry a firearm without a permit or mandated training. Provision is made to obtain a permit for reciprocity if a person so desires. There are some prohibited locations but I doubt that we will ever see a totally gun allowed environment. I think the new Arizona laws would be a good model and because Arizona has set a precident I agree with Paul Fisher that a carry option system is entirely possible during the next year. If we stick our head in the sand and say it won't happen then it won't happen.

    OK 1, 2,3 GO. Let me have it.

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    4, 5, 6 Thank you My Captain.

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    Keep in mind that "permits" and "training" are two different things, although they become intertwined at times:

    Some states require no permit whatsoever for CCW, i.e., VT, AK, AZ

    Other states require a permit, but no training or courses. Pennsylvania comes to mind.

    Some states require a permit, plus instruction, but they accept a wide range of training or instruction. For example Florida accepts a hunter's safety course, an NRA firearms safety course, military experience, and a number of other things as a prerequisite to get a license.

    Then, some states require a permit, PLUS completion of a specifically designated course, in order to get a permit. Minnesota is a prime example.

    Finally there are states, or areas of certain states, that basically, for lack of a better phrase require "political connections" or other such influence to get a permit. Or, in some instances, the good will of the sheriff-- in order to get a permit. I believe this applies in NY, HI, areas of CA, and places like Iowa (although that's changing next year.)

    In my opinion the order I have them above goes from the best to worst.

    Interestingly, one state (perhaps others), North Dakota, has a two-tier concealed gun permit system. A Class 1 permit (available for those 21 years of age or older) requires completion of a course, a written test, and a proficiency test.) A Class 2 permit (available for those 18 and above) requires only passing a written test. Both are equally valid in North Dakota, but the Class 1 permit has the advantage being recognized in more states than the Class 2 permit.

    I don't believe anyone here thinks less training or instruction in the use of firearms, firearm laws, self-defense laws, and related topics is BETTER than more training or instruction. The issue is whether there should be mandatory training prior to exercising a constitutional right. Now one might be able to argue that we have a constitutional right to carry a gun, but not a constitutional right to carry a concealed gun. Others would disagree and say the manner of carry is irrelevant, it's a constitutional right in both instances. Personally, that's my point of view too. But I don't make the rules. None of us do, individually, and I don't know if there's enough agreement among us to sway those who do make the rules in a certain direction. From a realistic stance, I think we aim for the top, and hopefully we'll be satisfied with getting as close as possible. Anything that improves the current "rock bottom" status in WI and IL regarding concealed carry is a step in the right direction. However I would not be all that pleased if we ended up barely out of rock bottom if concealed carry looked like it does in some states-- requiring mandatory training, plus having to convince some judge or sheriff or other person that you ought to get a permit.

    I don't think in the world of politics, it would be realistic to expect WI to go from no concealed carry, to concealed carry without a govt.-issued permit all in one step. Although I could envision that happening through some court action. It is unlikely to happen legislatively all at once. Ideally it would happen nation-wide, because those of us who wish to carry concealed in other states would be fairly limited if WI required no permit, but other states still did. Better, IMO, if we had optional permits like AZ and AK, in that scenario. Vermont carry is great, while you're in Vermont. Worthless outside of Vermont.

    But I dream of a day where we have better than Vermont carry throughout the USA.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    I don't require a permit to exercise my GOD-given right to defend myself.

  17. #17
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    permits equal money spent. permits equal revenue. permits equal registration, and your name on some government type list. are these the things we want?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    I don't require a permit to exercise my GOD-given right to defend myself.
    Grinner, I agree 100% with you. All I ask is that is that you tell your elected representatives, specifically your state assembly and senator what you want. If they don't support it, find out if someone is running against them does and VOTE!

    If they are Republican and don't support it, mention to them that the Wisconsin Republican platform removed the permit requirement this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    permits equal money spent. permits equal revenue. permits equal registration, and your name on some government type list. are these the things we want?
    What don't we spend money on and what government list aren't we already on?

    Unless somebody is a tax protester earning only cash and staying off the grid we are already being bled dry and on every list there is... whats one more?

    I believe in the theory of constitutional carry but I'm not sure how many yahoos without any training I want running around armed. I gotta say that back when the constitution was framed men were different. There was more honor and less criminally minded individuals around.

    Permitting and training has its benefits and detractions but in WI, the state of 10,000 laws I think its going to be a given.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 09-01-2010 at 09:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    There was more honor and less criminally minded individuals around.
    Very good! We agree on something. The criminal mind knowingly and with clear intent violates society's norms as expressed in the law. That is mens rea, the element of crime that is susceptible only to the judge/jury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    I believe in the theory of constitutional carry but I'm not sure how many yahoos without any training I want running around armed. I gotta say that back when the constitution was framed men were different. There was more honor and less criminally minded individuals around.
    Seems to be working pretty well for those that do not require permits to carry.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Seems to be working pretty well for those that do not require permits to carry.
    I guess that is what baffles me. Why is it OK for me to OC with no training/permit but all of a sudden I wear a jacket and I need training?

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I guess that is what baffles me. Why is it OK for me to OC with no training/permit but all of a sudden I wear a jacket and I need training?
    You got me. Just like I can join the military, fire fully automatic weapons, use grenades, etc, but in many places, I cannot be trusted with stuff? It is asinine!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    OK with who? Not with the snake-oil salesmen. According to them you can't be safe without paying for their approval.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    OK with who? Not with the snake-oil salesmen. According to them you can't be safe without paying for their approval.
    OK with the state of Wisconsin.

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