Carry Permits are de Facto Gun Registration

Hi Folks,

I've thought about this for a while. It occurs to me that any type of "permission" for shall-issue or concealed carry is really gun registration. The guns aren't really registered, but if the owners are registered then authorities can easily round up all owners/guns if they desired. I think this is why the anti-gun folks have been quiet. They know that we are all falling into a trap. I don't trust the Liberal/Democrats, nor the Neo-con/Republicans on this. The NRA has fallen into the Neo-con camp and has been duped too. Cheers....SlowPoke

SlowPoke said:

Hi Folks,

I've thought about this for a while. It occurs to me that any type of "permission" for shall-issue or concealed carry is really gun registration. The guns aren't really registered, but if the owners are registered then authorities can easily round up all owners/guns if they desired. I think this is why the anti-gun folks have been quiet. They know that we are all falling into a trap. I don't trust the Liberal/Democrats, nor the Neo-con/Republicans on this. The NRA has fallen into the Neo-con camp and has been duped too. Cheers....SlowPoke

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I actually know several people that have conceal carry permits and do not even own an air gun, let alone a firearm. If you look at conceal carry permits as registration the information is going to be non-definitive.

In the hypothetical OP is concerned with, "definitive" won't be the issue that obedient compliance will. Permitting gets the gun owner on a list as likely having a gun. If he doesn't, oh well, he still is not a threat.

Clarification on Gun Registration/Permits.

MatieA said:

I actually know several people that have conceal carry permits and do not even own an air gun, let alone a firearm. If you look at conceal carry permits as registration the information is going to be non-definitive.

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Just to clarify: I wrote: "...any type of "permission" for shall-issue or concealed carry....". These "permissions", of any type, concealed carry or otherwise, put owner information in the hands of government. They use databases. The information can go anywhere, fast. So I reiterate that "permissions" are de Facto registration. I do believe that some people with permits may no longer use them, but I would venture a guess that is a very small percentage. Non-definitive? If 25% were non-definitive that would still leave 75 of 100 people who have a permit open to government confiscation.

Cheers.....SlowPoke

I am not arguing the point made. I am just stating that any perceived information due to this process would be at best questionable; although the point about the non-gun owner not being a threat is a good point.

so don't get a license, never buy a new gun, never use a credit card to pay for ammunition, never buy ammo at walmart since they record everything that happens in the store, and stock up on tin foil for hats.

flb_78 said:

and stock up on tin foil for hats.

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But not on credit at Wal-Mart. Buy it used. Just don't get them started about the "Scrap Yard" loophole.

The problem with the license isn't the information they collect, it's the licensing of a right.

mcdonalk said:

But not on credit at Wal-Mart. Buy it used. Just don't get them started about the "Scrap Yard" loophole.

The problem with the license isn't the information they collect, it's the licensing of a right.

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As long as the license is solely for concealment, I couldn't care less. Unfortunately, in Alabama, the CPL is needed to carry in your car. If Alabama would fix that, I'd lose my CPL.

I printed out my own homemade carry permits.

Colorado outlaws and completely bans gun registration. Colorado issues a CHP.

I guess you better let them know...

Thinking that carry permits are a form of gun owner registration to the point where we will have the FBI or local authorities knocking on our door is paranoid fear mongering and no worse than the liberal left. It also sees just one picture and fails to look at the crime deterrent aspect of it. What I mean by this is it is often argued on this very site that states that shall-issue carry permits (concealed or otherwise) have the lowest violent crimes, so this "registration" serves as a point to tell criminals that there are X number of possible gun owners willing to defend themselves. Just like the open carry argument, criminals are less likely to be involved in something that can jeopardize their own lives and won't risk running into someone who may be carrying a loaded firearm. We only need to look at places like Chicago and compare to places like Seattle to see this in action.

software will find more gun owners than a CPL search... hire the right geek to code a web crawler for you and you can scoop up IP addresses from forum posts, Facebook accounts, etc. without a warrant and for any reason what-so-ever. My guess is the ratio of visitors-to-gun-owners on a site like this is much higher than the ratio of CPL-holders-to-gun-owners...

I don't remember where I read it, but of the quarter million CPL holders in WA an estimated 10% do not own a handgun. I had a CPL for almost a year before buying my first gun... went several years in between selling and buying where I had the CPL and no pistol.

Also, to my knowledge the state of WA does not keep a database of CPL holders.

In other words, they can see how many active CPL's are issued in the state, but not who carries them.

On the other hand, if they look you up they will see that you are an active CPL holder... but they have to look you up specifically. Like checking a fingerprint against yours... for example.

If I were a gun grabber and I was getting ready to go a gun grabbin, first places I would look are the CCL databases.

Trolling the internet for IP addresses requires warrants to get those IPs, then warrants to turn those IPs into physical addresses, then warrants to search the homes of the IPs. And even then, it's a real hit or miss. There are dozens of ways to spoof your IP and hide.

Trolling social networking isn't quite that easy, but it would be my next stop.

gun user registration does not matter for roundups. In fact it helps against any possible roundup if its a permit that can substitute for a NICS check.

for why it doesnt matter:
1. it contains no information about how many or what type of weapon you own other than pistol.
2. it could only really be used to effectively round up gun owners and not all owners.
3. if gun owners are being rounded up and not nice things done to them then I think its no longer time to hide since it means we would be under Soviet style rule.

Why it could be good: if the FBI is trying to make an illegal list then they just have to keep the NICS checks. If they don't then they would have to ask for basically all the bound books. Not quite so easy or unnoticeable.

SlowPoke said:

Hi Folks,

I've thought about this for a while. It occurs to me that any type of "permission" for shall-issue or concealed carry is really gun registration. The guns aren't really registered, but if the owners are registered then authorities can easily round up all owners/guns if they desired. I think this is why the anti-gun folks have been quiet. They know that we are all falling into a trap. I don't trust the Liberal/Democrats, nor the Neo-con/Republicans on this. The NRA has fallen into the Neo-con camp and has been duped too. Cheers....SlowPoke

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I liked how you started out making us think you were serious about something, but contradicting yourself to start illustrates otherwise. Apparently you have never filled out a Form 4473 which is required to be retained for quite a number of years. What was it, 10 or 20 years? Or perhaps you actually think those NICS checks are destroyed every 24 hours per the law. If they were, then they couldn't call back with an approval or denial. (duh moment isn't it?)

Trust in this, if you fill out paperwork on a firearm then the gooberment already knows about it. If you've ever conversed about firearms with your cell phone powered up or during any phone call (land line or cellular), the Fed already knows about it.

And I'm one of those folks that believes the Constitution states clearly "shall not be infringed", meaning NO entity shall regulate the right to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately it does not protect the purchase, which means the Fed and everyone else in gooberment can regulate purchasing. They like to use the interstate commerce clause to cover just that.

heresyourdipstickjimmy said:

Or perhaps you actually think those NICS checks are destroyed every 24 hours per the law. If they were, then they couldn't call back with an approval or denial. (duh moment isn't it?

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The NICS background check Does record your name in a data log but ONLY for the remainder of the day. All records of "allowed" (not denied) transactions are completely destroyed regularly every 24 hours.

There is No Federal registration of firearms to names. The only list that NICS maintains is a list of reasons for denial of.

When the transaction is "allowed" then there is absolutely no retained information about Who purchased the gun, What time/date, and what serial number. Just nothing.

If the transaction is "denied" then a recording of that information is maintained for the FBI. The FBI can then obtain records of your denials. There are NO records available as to When/If you purchased a firearm when the transaction is allowed.

If the transaction is "delayed" then your information is logged for ONLY 3 days. The FFL gets a date (3 days later) by which you will be allowed if NICS has not denied you in that 3 days. If you are denied after the 3 days - see above. If you are allowed- see above- and no information is recorded what so ever after 24 hours it is all destroyed.

No Federal firearms registration.

If your state has any registration scheme- that would be the only list tying your name to a firearm.

Lucky for me in Colorado firearm registration is illegal. Literally no records exist of any name/firearm when purchased in this great state.


So again, to address your statement- They can only call you back because you were denied at the moment. If you are allowed- there is no reason to contact you- and your info. is not recorded. ONLY if you are delayed/denied does your information get recorded (for this purpose exactly) and ONLY for 3 days. If NICS doesn't report back within 3 days you are "allowed" to purchase. Again, only 3 days and then you are allowed which would mean the record is destroyed in hours.

You got an education. It's all on the NICS website.

cscitney87 said:

The NICS background check Does record your name in a data log but ONLY for the remainder of the day. All records of "allowed" (not denied) transactions are completely destroyed regularly every 24 hours.

There is No Federal registration of firearms to names. The only list that NICS maintains is a list of reasons for denial of.

When the transaction is "allowed" then there is absolutely no retained information about Who purchased the gun, What time/date, and what serial number. Just nothing.

If the transaction is "denied" then a recording of that information is maintained for the FBI. The FBI can then obtain records of your denials. There are NO records available as to When/If you purchased a firearm when the transaction is allowed.

If the transaction is "delayed" then your information is logged for ONLY 3 days. The FFL gets a date (3 days later) by which you will be allowed if NICS has not denied you in that 3 days. If you are denied after the 3 days - see above. If you are allowed- see above- and no information is recorded what so ever after 24 hours it is all destroyed.

No Federal firearms registration.

If your state has any registration scheme- that would be the only list tying your name to a firearm.

Lucky for me in Colorado firearm registration is illegal. Literally no records exist of any name/firearm when purchased in this great state.


So again, to address your statement- They can only call you back because you were denied at the moment. If you are allowed- there is no reason to contact you- and your info. is not recorded. ONLY if you are delayed/denied does your information get recorded (for this purpose exactly) and ONLY for 3 days. If NICS doesn't report back within 3 days you are "allowed" to purchase. Again, only 3 days and then you are allowed which would mean the record is destroyed in hours.

You got an education. It's all on the NICS website.

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Well there is a firearms registry with names attached to guns. Any time you buy from an FFL they enter your name and the serial number and such into a bound book. If the business is closed the bound book gets turned in to ATF and not destroyed. I have heard, but not confirmed that there are actually more frequent and regular instances of turning in bound book info. Private transfers are the only way to keep off the feds list.

"If the business is closed the bound book gets turned in to ATF and not destroyed."

What you are saying is that the private business keeps its own records, of course.. You're saying after the business closes- the private business records are given to the ATF?

So.. if you purchased a firearm from a CLOSED DOWN only firearms business then you may be on a list that the ATF maintains? And for what reasons? And where is that disclosed? I could tell you exactly where my source comes from.

The NICS is not to be used to establish a federal firearm registry; information about an inquiry resulting in an allowed transfer is destroyed in accordance with NICS regulations. Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm

Once again- just so I get you straight- you are telling me that there is a Federal gun registry ONLY names/guns are added when closed down FFL businesses send their records to the ATF OR when a FFL business just feels like it? And where's your source that the ATF maintains such? ATF website? Please provide. Otherwise.. I just don't know about that one... And why do FFL businesses turn in their customers private information to the ATF whenever they feel like it? Whats the motive for business men to do something not required of them by law?

Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Registry_prohibition

The act also forbade the U.S. Government or any agency of it from keeping a registry directly linking non-National Firearms Act firearms to their owners, the specific language of this law ( Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (a)) being: No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.


That part is TRUE and verified via Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (a)


The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 created a national background check system to prevent firearms sales to prohibited persons. In order to comply with the prohibition on a Federal registry of non-NFA items, background check records are legally required to be destroyed after 24 hours,


however the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has consistently kept computer records for longer, citing "demographic and census reasons."[citation needed]


[citation needed] [citation needed] This means that there is no lawful, legal, or verifiable ATF document to SOURCE. There's nothing there- no source. It's not a legal, lawful, verifiable database if it even exists. It would be illegal under the above mentioned laws.


The fact is there's no National registration. There's nothing to search. If you wanted to Where would you even go to do it? You can't just ask the ATF what guns somebody owns. There is no list to check. There's no computer to search. There's no database to request information from.

States and Local governments do this- some don't. My state there is no registration and thus all firearms sold in this state are not "tracked" or "traced" unless you PURPOSELY give police officers information. If a firearm is stolen- you should and may report the firearm and it's serial number. But that information isn't necessarily going into some big database list that people can track anytime. It's for pawn shops to use to see if it's stolen and for cops in case it's used in a crime.

Same with National Federal registration- there's nothing to do- nobody to ask- no computer to search.. Nothing. If there is a "secret ATF database" then it's certainly not on the law books and unsearchable to such degree.

^^^ Again, The act also forbade the U.S. Government or any agency of it from keeping a registry directly linking non-National Firearms Act firearms to their owners. Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (2) (a)

FFL holders are required to keep a registry of firearms sales in an ATF-approved Bound Book, or a computerized equivalent using ATF-approved software. They must also maintain file copies of Form 4473 or eForm 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record" documents, for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. When retiring or otherwise relinquishing a license, these records are sent to the BATFE's Out-of-Business Records Center. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five business day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.


So No No there's definitely NOT some arbitrary ATF firearms/owners database. This is not a firearms registration in that you can ask if "John Adams Smith Junior" has purchased any firearms lately. It's not record keeping like that. Plainly stated-