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OCer robbed at gunpoint, of his gun

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
So.. it is normal now ...

~ I am a big Open Carry advocate, and do so as much as possible. I believe whole heartedly in the right to keep and bear arms, and in normalizing it. I do however realize and respect, that as it becomes more common place, and becomes more accepted and normal, you will have encounters that normal people have. People crash cars, and people will drop guns, and they may discharge. People lose expensive jewelry, and people will sometimes forget their guns in bathrooms or dressing rooms. People get robbed for wallets, jewelry (if they didn’t forget it at Macy’s), and thus, will at a point, get robbed for that nice looking firearm that the BG wants bad enough to risk his life for. These occurrences will be rare and uncommon, but they will happen. I don’t particularly doubt the story. I do think it is too bad, and I am glad the guy is ok. I happen to carry a Back up directly addressing my concern of firearm theft. I also would say, with conviction, ya better kill me before you try to take my gun at gunpoint... I will draw... I will fire.... I would expect to catch a round in the exchange.....I myself am no stranger to pain. This is the code that I as a pistolero must accept if I am to keep safe my arms without fail, or accept that my arm, once relinquished, may cause hardship and loss of life for my frailty or inability to retain it. I take the stance seriously, and accept the conviction as my personal code. My final thoughts, if someone is pointing a gun at me, then they very likely will shoot me, even if I give them what they want… – Alas, to each their own, and I understand many will carry a firearm, yet will relinquish it in the face of extreme adversity in hopes they will not suffer pain or death.
– Normal people make individual choices right? --- Yes they do …. That’s normal.
Bat.
 
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heresyourdipstickjimmy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
279
Location
Mo.
Hmmm....interesting.

Why is it I don't see a single post from those who wanted to try to single me out on this very subject. :shocker: Could it be that this is just a slap in the face and it has finally shut those folks up? (I expect a lashing now, so have some fun) I thought your OC proudly displayed was supposed to deter BG's from victimizing you...guess that's really not the case now is it and perhaps this ex-military LEO had this issue directly in his crosshairs all along.

Just goes to show that CCW is a good option and OC can actually make you a target.

I certainly hope this is enough of a duh moment for you OC hard-core folks, to the point that you'll think twice prior to each time you choose to OC. I have for some time, so I hope you will as well after seeing this.

OC and you are a target of opportunity that can give BG's a back-up-gun.
 
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MatieA

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Messages
400
Location
Egbert, Wyoming, USA
Hmmm....interesting.

Why is it I don't see a single post from those who wanted to try to single me out on this very subject. :shocker: Could it be that this is just a slap in the face and it has finally shut those folks up? (I expect a lashing now, so have some fun)

Just goes to show that CCW is a good option and OC can actually make you a target.

I certainly hope this is enough of a duh moment for you OC hard-core folks, to the point that you'll think twice prior to each time you choose to OC. I have for some time, so I hope you will as well after seeing this.

OC and you are a target of opportunity.

Live and you are a target of opportunity!! Armed, concealed, open, or unarmed!!!
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP Why is it I don't see a single post from those who wanted to try to single me out on this very subject...

...Just goes to show that CCW is a good option and OC can actually make you a target.

I certainly hope this is enough of a duh moment for you OC hard-core folks, to the point that you'll think twice prior to each time you choose to OC. I have for some time, so I hope you will as well after seeing this.

OC and you are a target of opportunity that can give BG's a back-up-gun.

(laff) Thousands of guys and few girls OCing daily for four years for hundreds of thousands of hours, and one guy gets robbed of his gun, and suddenly OC makes you a target! (chuckle)

Oh, yeah, tons of OCers being gun-grabbed and robbed. A crime wave against OCers! Don't even go outside! Don't even OC outside your bedroom! Its too dangerous!

Well, enough sarcasm. Actually, I am almost insulted. The poster acts like we didn't consider the possibility of gun-grabs and robbery before we started OCing. So, he wants to make sure that we hear his carefully weighed judgement, and think twice before each OC. Ooooooooo. Think carefully everybody. Obviously only the poster could have given it enough thought. (laff)
 

heresyourdipstickjimmy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
279
Location
Mo.
Too bad the actual felons committing the actual crimes don't agree with you. Whatever.... there's nothing wrong with you carrying concealed.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-print.pdf

Page 31:
Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.172

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:179
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

172 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986

179 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice



Ahhh... but some people just can't handle the truth...

dipstick is the most factual statement in your post, heresyourdipstickjimmy!

LT, they should disagree with me...it would be foolish for them to agree with me. How often does this occur? Not often at all that we know of. It's also why we're starting to see declines in some cities in regards to home burglaries and home invasions in pro-gun States. BG's know there's a potential for a homeowner to be armed and that means a potential death sentence or a LOT of pain are part of the risk if they go into a home. Businesses, not so much in a lot of cities.

You've obviously not read any of my posts where I clearly state that I do OC from time to time. I have no problems with the practice, just that too many folks have their heads in the sand enough to think this won't happen to them just because they are OC'ing. Not saying this is proof that we're all at risk just because, but the potential certainly is there. And you can bet those stats were taken from convicted felons are totally skewed as they wouldn't want to admit prepping for a crime and those that were currently in-housing wouldn't want to risk being denied any early release...I'd have to see the original study's (if it's actually a study) selection criteria and participant base as it's also probably isolated to just one location and may not able to be applied to the population. Study conducted in 1986? Come on...that's so far disconnected from today it's not funny and crime stats took a major down-turn in the late 1980's to early 1990's according to the FBI's stats.

I so love it when folks want to cite outdated crime research from the 1980's and prior. Most of that data wouldn't have even applied in the mid 1990's, let alone today. So unless the study has been replicated at any point throughout history then it's bunk and says only one thing: here's something we might look at in the future. If you knew anything about statistics and research methods...being a Navy LT you had better learn stats and research methods, they'll be a great asset in your future...you'd already know statistics do not prove anything, they only show possible relationships.

My military experience and yours should illustrate clearly (to us) that the first threat targets we go after are those exposed with visible firearms as they have the ability of rapid response with deadly force. BG's have been picking this thought process up for some time.

So I'll repeat myself like I am forced to periodically on this board as some said it could not happen, OC deters:

Why is it I don't see a single post from those who wanted to try to single me out on this very subject. Could it be that this is just a slap in the face and it has finally shut those folks up? (I expect a lashing now, so have some fun) I thought your OC proudly displayed was supposed to deter BG's from victimizing you...guess that's really not the case now is it and perhaps this ex-military LEO had this issue directly in his crosshairs all along.
 
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Jim675

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,023
Location
Bellevue, Washington, USA
Like all other tools, be they fire alarms, seat belts, hand rails on a stairway, etc. - firearms are not a promise of a safe outcome. They are merely a means to increase the odds in your favor.

Our rights are not rights because they promise perfect results in all situations but because they afford the best chance of providing a fulfilling life to as many as possible for as long as possible before our own sloth and fear deprive us of the same rights.
 

TOF

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
443
Location
Happy Jack, Arizona, USA
Why is it I don't see a single post from those who wanted to try to single me out on this very subject. Could it be that this is just a slap in the face and it has finally shut those folks up? (I expect a lashing now, so have some fun) I thought your OC proudly displayed was supposed to deter BG's from victimizing you...guess that's really not the case now is it and perhaps this ex-military LEO had this issue directly in his crosshairs all along.

Perhaps you and your opinion are not considered important enough to single out. Just saying.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Perhaps you and your opinion are not considered important enough to single out. Just saying.

Perhaps this combat vet has it completely correct when he says that he agrees with you TOF. Thousands of open carriers carry every day and only one eventually gets robbed at gunpoint for his firearm.

Perhaps this combat vet had that in his crosshairs all along.... :banana:

You crack me up though dipstick. Jesus what an appropriate name.

OC of COURSE acts as a deterence. Just because one crazy SoB is mentally deranged enough to directly put himself in peril, does not justify your laughable outlook that somehow OC is not deterring.

What's the statement?

Oh yeah...

"Even the sun shines on a dogs ass now and then..."
 
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Smith45acp

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
434
Location
NC
~ I am a big Open Carry advocate, and do so as much as possible. I believe whole heartedly in the right to keep and bear arms, and in normalizing it. I do however realize and respect, that as it becomes more common place, and becomes more accepted and normal, you will have encounters that normal people have. People crash cars, and people will drop guns, and they may discharge. People lose expensive jewelry, and people will sometimes forget their guns in bathrooms or dressing rooms. People get robbed for wallets, jewelry (if they didn’t forget it at Macy’s), and thus, will at a point, get robbed for that nice looking firearm that the BG wants bad enough to risk his life for. These occurrences will be rare and uncommon, but they will happen. I don’t particularly doubt the story. I do think it is too bad, and I am glad the guy is ok. I happen to carry a Back up directly addressing my concern of firearm theft. I also would say, with conviction, ya better kill me before you try to take my gun at gunpoint... I will draw... I will fire.... I would expect to catch a round in the exchange.....I myself am no stranger to pain. This is the code that I as a pistolero must accept if I am to keep safe my arms without fail, or accept that my arm, once relinquished, may cause hardship and loss of life for my frailty or inability to retain it. I take the stance seriously, and accept the conviction as my personal code. My final thoughts, if someone is pointing a gun at me, then they very likely will shoot me, even if I give them what they want… – Alas, to each their own, and I understand many will carry a firearm, yet will relinquish it in the face of extreme adversity in hopes they will not suffer pain or death.
– Normal people make individual choices right? --- Yes they do …. That’s normal.
Bat.

I like this
 

USMC1986

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
78
Location
USA
It's easy to see why this story gets discredited by the OC advocates but its a classic example of what can go wrong, will go wrong. How many times have people said, "where is the proof that OC can go against you?" Well here it is. While it might not be common for things like this to happen, that doesn't mean it can't.

I still believe OC has its place in this World and I will continue to practice it. I just wish some of the advocates, that continually ask for proof of when OC can go against you, will be a little more open-minded on the matter. It never hurts to be cautious and wearing a gun on your hip doesn't make you a God.
 

MarlboroLts5150

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
407
Location
San Antonio
There was another thread here on OCDO about this very incident, back around June. Anyone know where I can find it? Been searching for awhile, but........
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
There was another thread here on OCDO about this very incident, back around June. Anyone know where I can find it? Been searching for awhile, but........

There were several threads. Search on the words robbed and Milwaukee. Look for thread start dates June 2 and slightly later.
 

Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
1,197
Location
, ,
OC of COURSE acts as a deterence. Just because one crazy SoB is mentally deranged enough to directly put himself in peril, does not justify your laughable outlook that somehow OC is not deterring.

Just like I told the local media when they interviewed me about this story.

The reporter said "I thought open-carry was suppose to be a deterrent"

I said "It IS a deterrent, it just doesn't deter ALL crime".

I know people that got in car accidents that would be dead if they had their seatbelt on. Yet we all know wearing your seatbelt is almost always going to be better.

I believe open-carry deters most crime, not all crime.

I prefer to OC, but there are places that I would never OC. Example, in Milwaukee we have the world largest outdoor music festival "Summerfest" on a given friday/saturday night you'll have around 100,000 people packed into the festival grounds. At times its shoulder to shoulder belly to back and you can barely move. I wouldn't want to be OC'ing in that situation, but I WOULD want to be armed as people have been assaulted just outside the grounds walking from the festival to their car.

This story is noteworthy, but I don't think should call into question the efficacy of OC.

Even before this incident I would never have claimed that OC is ALWAYS the best carry method.
 

KRM59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2010
Messages
256
Location
louisville, Kentucky
My 2 cents

Will this kind of thing happen? sure. there will always be some person out there that thinks there super BG.

How likely is it to Happen to you? lets say buy lottery tickets you will win before this happens to you.

Is oc a deterent ? absolutly.
is it fool proof? absolutly not.

this could have happened just the same if the BG saw a buldge under the shirt and figured it was a gun or anything else he wanted.

situational awareness is the key. no one is perfect, we do the best we can. but like anything in this world, anything can happen at any given time. this is the only thing that is for certain.

what would you have done in this situation? who knows untill it happens.
oc if you want !!! cc carry if you want. hell do both, just always be alert as much as possible. there will always be some fool out there that wants to test there mortality.
 

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
2,615
Location
Lobelville, Tennessee, USA
That struck me as especially humorous.... there are fools out there to whom the gun won't matter! :lol:

The stats presented earlier about the 60% of Convicted felons admitting to not targeting persons they knew were armed tends to be looked at short sightedly. That 60% looks appealing, but how many forget about the other 40% that would still target a known armed individual?

Those in the 60% group are obviously criminals with enough mental capacity to weigh "risk vs reward." They are able to make a dicision that the "risks" to themselves of targeting an armed person far outweighs the potential "reward" that might gain. Moving on to a more vulnerable target becomes their logical choice.

But what about that 40% of convicted felons that didn't admit they wouldn't target someone they knew was armed? My assumption is that these criminals are not mentally capable of making the "risks vs reward" assessment. Some will be mentally impaired via drugs/alcohol. Others will be mentally impaired due to pyshological reasons. It should be abvoius to all of us that this 40% of criminals simply don't care if they get hurt or not. And they are the ones we will still have to watch out for and be prepared to defend against.... whether we carry CC or OC.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
"Admitted."

You assume that the other 40% said they would commit a crime on an armed victim. Even if one assumes as you did, how many of that 40% were blustering?

No, 60% admitting that they would avoid armed victims means a lot more would also avoid armed victims, just not admit it.

Getting 2/3 or more of the criminal element to pass you by is a good reason to let them know that you are armed.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
IMO, those assumptions are racist.

I assume that most people in prison will be non-white, because that is what history has shown me to be true. I beleive it will be true tomorrow. That is an assumption, based on evidence, and it is no more racist than the previous assumptions. It is an educated and reasonable supposition.

It is not a certainty. When it is foolish to consider the alternative, it is reasonable to presume.

It is not racist to presume that a violent criminal is black in a vacuum of facts. The only fact we have is that, statistically, it's most likely a black guy. That statistic is a fact, and it's the only one we've got. It would be stupid to presume that the crime was commited by an alien from another planet. Statistics are all we have to go on here, and those numbers cannot be lied about. Math is not racist. Nor is basing one's decisions, beliefs, etc., upon it.

Science is not racism.
 
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