Jefferson County

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

I'm in for Culvers. There is no Starbucks anywhere near Fort Atkinson. 10/24 sounds good to me!

shorin21 let us know if that fits with you and you'll have some company.

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I'm in for ice-cream Paul :banana:! I'll put it in the calendar when the date an location is finalized. Shorin21 it was great to meet you in Delavan (I was Carrying the never fired M&P), hope to see you again soon.


All of these meetings popping up reminds me of this video by our Missouri brothers:


[video=youtube;SBiOXdKENX4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBiOXdKENX4[/video]

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

I'm in for Culvers. There is no Starbucks anywhere near Fort Atkinson. 10/24 sounds good to me!

shorin21 let us know if that fits with you and you'll have some company.

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For what it's worth, perhaps nothing, the Culvers in Fort Atkinson appears to be directly across the street from the senior high school. Whether that would be manipulated negatively in the press should be considered. Plus, given the Chief's past ignorant comments, one can only hope that he has a clear understanding of the GFSZ statute and "private property."

Jason in WI said:

I'm in for ice-cream

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If I have had just one criticism of OCDO it is that there's been too little Metallica on here. Thanks for correcting that Jason.

Shotgun said:

For what it's worth, perhaps nothing, the Culvers in Fort Atkinson appears to be directly across the street from the senior high school. Whether that would be manipulated negatively in the press should be considered. Plus, given the Chief's past ignorant comments, one can only hope that he has a clear understanding of the GFSZ statute and "private property."

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I carry in GFSZ's on private property ALL the time. Even the Racine DA has admitted it doesn't matter whose "private" property, only that it is private.

If you guys are came for 10/24, I'll be the guy ordering the Bacon Butter Burger Deluxe basket with a Root beer Malt (Yum, Yum).

Damn the GFSZ's, full steam ahead. He want's to violate my civil rights, and those of my children, then it will cost him $$$$$$$$$

Carry On!

I should have offered more explanation--- that it is surrounded by a GFSZ requires us to consider whether Culver's parking lot would be adequate to handle everyone. We do want a LARGE turnout, correct? It's a logistical matter. If off-site parking is required by anyone they ought to make sure they keep 'em unloaded and encased as they proceed to Culver's property.

Doug Huffman said:

Well said. Preempted but locally enforceable.

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see now im confused can they enforce or not..... cause if thats the case according to Doug in my opinion you could still get a ticket and then arrested and there would be no way in fighting it, and we wouldnt be able to carry in many places....so i from what i read and understand its unenforcable? am i correct? and if issued a ticket i could fight it and it would be thrown out..clarification????

Shorin21 said:

see now im confused can they enforce or not.....

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They could enforce but it would more than likely get dropped and if it was taken to a higher court the defendant would win. The ordinances are preempted. Some cops don't care about that and in court they will claim qualified immunity stating they were only doing their job. All I can say is just do it. If they cite you then fight it in court and you will win.

Shorin21 said:

Anyone know of any future plans/or needs help with future plans of an oc event in the Jefferson County area. Whitewater, Fort Atkinson, Palmyra, Watertown?????

Any thoughts?

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Shorin, Open carry is lawful border to border-period. Just do it and stay out of school zones. I carry in Jefferson County daily in Watertown and all around Johnson Creek without any issues. I hardly ever get to Fort Atkinson so haven't carried there. First steps are always hard but once you start you will find that most people don't even notice and the ones that do are not alarmed. Just act normal, smile at people. The Fort police chief was way off base with his statements as reported by Shotgun but please note that was before Van Hollen's opinion came out.
If you know of a place for a get-together in Fort I will for sure attend if I am not working, I work half the weekends.

Law abiding citizens do not have discretion in choosing which law to abide.

J.Gleason said:

They could enforce but it would more than likely get dropped and if it was taken to a higher court the defendant would win. The ordinances are preempted. Some cops don't care about that and in court they will claim qualified immunity stating they were only doing their job. All I can say is just do it. If they cite you then fight it in court and you will win.

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The cops are hired and commissioned to enforce the laws of their jurisdiction that are just as legal as state statutes infringing on the constitution. We law abiding citizens do not have the discretion to pick and choose which law we abide, God's Law, natural law, Constitutional law, federal law, state constitution home rule, state statute, county ordinance or municipal ordinance.

Shorin21 said:

see now im confused can they enforce or not..... cause if thats the case according to Doug in my opinion you could still get a ticket and then arrested and there would be no way in fighting it, and we wouldnt be able to carry in many places....so i from what i read and understand its unenforcable? am i correct? and if issued a ticket i could fight it and it would be thrown out..clarification????

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Doug is technically correct and this is the reason I didn't OC in Elkhorn until recently. The police have the right to enforce the law that is on the books, so you could get a ticket and your handgun confiscated, however, depending on the violation, the DA or other prosecuting authority should drop the case. If that doesn't work, the judge should throw it out. If that doesn't work, as soon as you get to a state court it would be thrown out. If, however, the police act on the law, the city can be sued for ignoring our warnings that they have an non-prosecutable law. I'm sure I am using the wrong term there but I'm sure Doug will straighten me out.

It all depends if Fort Atkinson wants the bad publicity and the resulting lawsuit.

As long as local ordinances remain "on the books" the cop on the street is duty bound to arrest or issue citations if they are violated, in other words enforced. It is the duty of someone higher up in the judicial or law enforcement hierarchy to determine if the action should be allowed to progress. In the majority of situations my opinion is that they won't advance but that doesn't free us from hours of intimidation and inconvienience. That's why the local ordinances must be purged whenever we find them.

Doug Huffman said:

We law abiding citizens do not have the discretion to pick and choose which law we abide, God's Law, natural law, Constitutional law, federal law, state constitution home rule, state statute, county ordinance or municipal ordinance.

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Yet we celebrate and honor, and are very fortunate that those who started and fought in the American Revolution were not "law abiding."

i would not call them that, i would call them 'spirited'. law of a king not tolerated.

Shorin21 said:

see now im confused can they enforce or not..... cause if thats the case according to Doug in my opinion you could still get a ticket and then arrested and there would be no way in fighting it, and we wouldnt be able to carry in many places....so i from what i read and understand its unenforcable? am i correct? and if issued a ticket i could fight it and it would be thrown out..clarification????

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I totally understand why you are confused. It was great to meet you on Sunday, and I will get that letter of to Palmyra.

When people post half-answers... just enough to confuse you, I think its a disservice to the movement. I think people have an obligation, if they are going to post a half-answer, to put it in context and explain it in plain english. I'm sorry that there are members of this forum who chose not to. It is a disservice, but it makes them feel good.

No one can promise you that the police will abide within the law. The preemption statute is very clear.

(2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision
may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates
the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping,
possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting,
registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including
ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or
resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than,
a state statute.

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If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17,
1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase,
transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation,
licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm
or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar
to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal
effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance
or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.

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The ordinance has no legal effect and it may not be enforced. PERIOD.

That does not mean that the police will always abide within the law. NO ONE can promise you that the police won't violate the law. I can tell you its rare, but we have a couple members in Wisconsin whom the police violated the law and arrested. Of course we have 10's of thousands of open-carry occurrence where people open-carried and nothing happened.

The police can come break into your house without a warrant today. That would be illegal, but I can't promise you they won't do it. Police do break the law.

All I can tell you is that the law is on your side. Despite people in this thread confusing you with their cryptic comments and half answers, comp45acp is right.

Open carry is legal border to border. Stay out of school zones unless you are in private property.

If you were open-carrying and doing nothing illegal and you were arrested and cited for Palmyra's ordinance (which by law they aren't legally allowed to enforce) you would have the legal support of WCI

Wisconsin Carry said:

If you were open-carrying and doing nothing illegal and you were arrested and cited for Palmyra's ordinance (which by law they aren't legally allowed to enforce) you would have the legal support of WCI

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Just asking for clarification, support as in moral support? Support as in WCI will hire you a criminal defense attorney or support as in after the criminal matter is settled WCI will review what civil action can be done?

Not trying to start a fight, just want to know.

I would assume #3 since that is what WCI did with Sprinfield1911 and may be doing with MKEGal.

Shonin21,

I JUST got off the phone with Sgt. Lepak (the one who had originally responded to your question which was posed through the city clerk) of the Palmyra police department.

Sgt. Lepak and I had a great conversation, before I could even bring up the preemption law she knew what the call was concerning and indicated that she misunderstood the context of the question as it was posed through the city clerk and was incorrect with regard to her response to your question.

She told me you would NOT be cited/arrested for Palmyra's ordinance. She is well aware (now) that Palmyra's ordinance is unenforceable.

Please feel free to give her a call and she will confirm our conversation. She said she's there all day most days.

Carry On!

Just asking for clarification, support as in moral support? Support as in WCI will hire you a criminal defense attorney or support as in after the criminal matter is settled WCI will review what civil action can be done?

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Paul, as you have noted, there are various kinds of legal support. Its impossible to answer what kind of legal support we would give a person until we know what kind of situation they were facing.

Given the scenario I laid out above, I can assure you WCI would have offered legal support. What kind, I can't answer until more variables of the situation would be identified.

As an example, if Shonin received a citation for Palmyra's ordinance, but no arrest, no confiscation of the weapon, and a few days later when the citation made it to the city attorney's desk and he promptly realized the error of the officers and the citation was disposed of, I'm pretty confident based on conversations with our attorneys thats not a scenario we'd file a civil case.

Having said that, I would remind people that they are responsible for their own actions. WCI advocates that people follow the law, even those we believe to be unconstitutional. Every situation is unique. No one should act under the belief that if they get in trouble WCI guarantees them help. We look at each situation individually and decide if our getting involved is a good use of WCI resources to achieve our mission (which is posted on our website)

Wisconsin Carry said:

Shonin21,

I JUST got off the phone with Sgt. Lepak (the one who had originally responded to your question which was posed through the city clerk) of the Palmyra police department.

Sgt. Lepak and I had a great conversation, before I could even bring up the preemption law she knew what the call was concerning and indicated that she misunderstood the context of the question as it was posed through the city clerk and was incorrect with regard to her response to your question.

She told me you would NOT be cited/arrested for Palmyra's ordinance. She is well aware (now) that Palmyra's ordinance is unenforceable.

Please feel free to give her a call and she will confirm our conversation. She said she's there all day most days.

Carry On!

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I've never been to Palmyra's, but that's great news! Thanks for checking it out.

Yep... thanks for your efforts Nik!

Wisconsin Carry said:

Doug, this is a prime example of what I believe is a disservice to members on this forum.

You mislead people.

Palmyra would be breaking the law by enforcing a pre-empted ordinance.

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I don't like to have to do this, but I have to agree with Doug again...
Just because you will not be found guilty of any crime in court does not mean that the police can not arrest you.
If an old law is still on the books in your area, you could be arrested by the police. The charge should be dropped in court, but the arrest could still happen.
This is why it is so important to make sure all of the "old" laws are removed. If you find an old "bad" law, start sending out letters to the local board to have them removed (e-mail should work fine). Once removed, the police will have no grounds at all to arrest you. You should never have to go to court to get the charges dropped.

I am not to sure why Wis. Carry has this big issue with Doug, but I think on this one, he is correct...
The way Spartacus hits him at any chance he gets, is starting to get a little old...
And please Spartacus don't get me wrong. Doug has in the past gotten me red hot (Doug, you elected official you). I have gone from offering him a visit and free beer (all made in Wisconsin), to the "tar and feather" talk. The fact is that I still need people like him to get the laws changed the way I want them. It might hurt to have to say it, but love him or hate him, in this fight, I still need him. I might not like him, but in this fight, we are still brothers.
I guess I could only ask that we stop the fighting. We all are on the same side, but none of us are the same people. It takes all kinds to make laws change.
Hell, if you want to start a real fight, remember, I voted for the black guy! :}

America, an idea worth protecting...