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Thread: Question for fellow NC'ers.

  1. #1
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    Question for fellow NC'ers.

    Situation-

    Standing in line at gas station, BG pulls out weapon. Doesn't shoot anyone but aims it whoever. I draw and fire, killing said BG.

    Would I be in the **** for not leaving the store, but rather defending the others?

    Yes, I know that it would be probably "smarter" to just leave everyone at the mercy of the BG, but the white knight in me has a hard time processing that.


    Reason behind this-gas station I frequent up the street from my house has been robbed several times in the last year, each more violent than the last. I happen to know and adore the old lady that works there, and I stop by there at night alot on the way home from work.


    Opinions and criticism are welcome, but knowledge and proof would be even more appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC-Advocate View Post
    Situation-

    Standing in line at gas station, BG pulls out weapon. Doesn't shoot anyone but aims it whoever. I draw and fire, killing said BG.

    Would I be in the **** for not leaving the store, but rather defending the others?

    Yes, I know that it would be probably "smarter" to just leave everyone at the mercy of the BG, but the white knight in me has a hard time processing that.


    Reason behind this-gas station I frequent up the street from my house has been robbed several times in the last year, each more violent than the last. I happen to know and adore the old lady that works there, and I stop by there at night alot on the way home from work.


    Opinions and criticism are welcome, but knowledge and proof would be even more appreciated.
    You are legally protected to respond to deadly force with deadly force. If someone is pointing a gun at either you or someone else and either you or that other person has not instigated the action by using deadly force you should be righteous.

    I think if I was in the situation of witnessing a gun pointed at a clerk I would not fire on the BG as long as his gun was still aimed at that innocent. Seems too easy for a reflex to kick in and cause the BG to pull the trigger where ever it is already aiming.

    But it's hard to say what would happen if you were ever unfortunate enough to actually be in a life or death scenario.

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    Depends on the laws in your area. Here in Louisiana we have "castle doctrine" laws. Basically that means if you are anywhere you have a legal right to be, and you or someone around you is in danger, you have no duty to retreat. Furthermore, if you reasonably believe your life or the life of another is in danger, you may respond with deadly force. What's even better, is there's also a provision here that states if you terminate someone and they are commiting a felony, their family CAN NOT SUE.

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    You are allowed to use lethal force to protect another if that person would be legally allowed to use such force to protect them self.

    In the case of being in a store that was being robbed, you could shoot without warning and fatally.
    Last edited by mekender; 09-02-2010 at 07:27 PM.

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Remember: you only shoot to stop, never to kill.

    If you have to stop someone by shooting the entire magazine, so be it. But never reload and keep firing unless its an actual gun fight.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    SNIP You are legally protected to respond to deadly force with deadly force. If someone is pointing a gun at either you or someone else and either you or that other person has not instigated the action by using deadly force you should be righteous.
    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    You are allowed to use lethal force to protect another if that person would be legally allowed to use such force to protect them self.
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rules #5:

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

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    I agree with some of the posts that are here. One thing that has not been mentioned. Could you find another gas station. Sounds like this one has a rep for being a good place to rob. That sounds like a bad place to shop. I'm all for a free man or woman going where they want to. So take it as an alternate suggestion.


    Citizen, do you know how hard it is to actually find that info through the state? Harder than it should be. Here's some excerpts from the CC handbook regarding deadly force.

    http://www.wsoctv.com/news/13653578/detail.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    Remember: you only shoot to stop, never to kill.
    Not being argumentative here, but I was taught just the oppostie in my security/private investigator/bodyguard courses. "I was shooting to kill because my life was in danger and I felt it was my life or his." If I was not shooting to kill then the retort by the P.A. is, "If you didn't want kill someone who was trying to kill you then you must not have felt your life was in imminent danger."
    I'm not saying you should appear to be glad you killed him. But if you only wanted to wound him, the threat must not have been escalated to the point that there was no other option.

    In your scenario, the acid test for me is "WOULD A REASONABLE PERSON IN YOUR SITUATION FEEL THAT HIS LIFE (OR THE LIFE OF A THIRD PERSON IF YOUR STATE STATUTE ALLOWS) WAS IN IMMINENT DANGER.

    If the question is yes, the shoot away. As one of my instructors told me, your life doesn't have to actually be in danger, but a reasonable person would have to FEEL THAT IT WAS. If the gun was pointed at the clerk, at a store often robbed, and the acts of the suspect was like a robbery, it is my belief that any rational, intelligent person would feel the clerks life was in imminent danger.

    Again, not being a troll, but my response in court is going to be "Yessir, I shot him with the intent to kill him. I regret he put me in that predicament, but my life was in danger and I felt it was my life or his and I felt I had to kill him to continue to live."

    This is one of the reasons you see in the news where the cops shot some guy 30 times and it isn't ruled a bad shoot. They are shooting to kill him, not to wound him or scare him away.
    Last edited by Anthony_I_Am; 09-03-2010 at 09:34 PM.

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    You always are shooting to stop the situation. You are never, ever shooting to kill. If killing that person is the result of you having to stop the situation, then so be it.

    By saying that you were shooting to kill, you can easily be painted as a person that was out to kill someone, consequences be damned. Remember, ANYTHING you say can be used against you... And while you might actually say:

    "Yessir, I shot him with the intent to kill him. I regret he put me in that predicament, but my life was in danger and I felt it was my life or his and I felt I had to kill him to continue to live."
    What the DA is going to say in court at your trial is:

    "The defendant, when interviewed by the police said, and I quote:

    Yessir, I shot him with the intent to kill him.
    So you can see, the defendant was out to kill someone, consequences be damned and that is why you the jury must find him guilty of murder"

    Prosecutors are not required to disclose anything you say. They can use any part of what you say against you and they have no obligation to provide exonerating evidence to your defense lawyer.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rules #5:

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    North Carolina Gun Law: Use Of Deadly Physical Force Against An Intruder
    Excerpted from the North Carolina, Concealed Carry Handgun Training Manual, Published by the North Carolina Justice Academy, Written by Inst. Steve Johnson:
    1) North Carolina Common Law
    Use of force to protect a person
    (1) Justified Self-Defense

    A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another only if:
    (a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault and
    (b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force was necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, and
    (c) The person using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, and
    (d) Force used was not excessive - greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor.
    (2) Duty To Retreat Before Using Deadly Force Unless and exception such as those listed below applies, a citizen must retreat before using deadly force if retreat is possible.
    Exception
    A. There is no duty to retreat before using deadly force if the assault threatens imminent death or great bodily harm - a murderous or felonious assault or sexual assault.
    Exception
    B. There is no duty to retreat before using deadly force if the victim is on his or her own premises, or on his or her business premises, or is at home.
    (4) Deadly Force in Defence of Others
    A Citizen may intervene and use deadly force in defence of another person when, under the facts and circumstances, it reasonably appeared necessary to save the other person from imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault but only to the extent the other person was entitled to use deadly force in self-defence.

    (5) Deadly Force MAY NOT Be Used:
    (a) To Stop a Simple Assault.The exact point in time a simple assault becomes deadly is often unclear. Repeated blows to vital body areas, choking, continued beating on a helpless or weakened victim, are some indicators.
    (b) Because of the Use of Violent Language 14-277.1. Communicating threats.
    (c) Because You Are a Victim of Past Violence and Fear Future Violence
    (d) Because a Trespasser Refuses to Leave
    (e) To Arrest a Criminal or to Prevent a Criminal's Escape
    b. Use of force to protect property
    The law does not permit the use of deadly force solely to protect property, or to prevent theft, or to regain stolen property. An owner CANNOT shoot at a thief - before, during, or after a theft. The same rule prohibits deadly force to prevent injury or vandalism to property. A different rule applies if life is imminently threatened at the same time property is taken. Deadly force used to prevent an armed robbery is force used to protect life, not to protect property.
    Last edited by papa bear; 09-03-2010 at 11:46 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Anthony, as a fellow forum mate, I would highly suggest you do not even mention the fact that you were shooting to kill.

    You could and will be painted as an armed lunatic that was out to cause terror, and a simple open and shut case of self defense will get drawn out into a murder investigation/trial.

    The courtroom is a word game - who says what, how, and when. Say what needs to be said, and there is a much better chance of staying out of prison (pound me in the a$$ prison, for those questioning if it could be a minimum security resort).

    I say this only because we need to look out for each other. If you feel that you should say you shot with intent to kill, then so be it. But be prepared for some serious consequences.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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    "I feared for my life [or some one elese). I want to speak to a lawyer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahr CCW View Post

    Very informative

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    I was always taught you never shoot to kill, you always shoot to live.

    Sent from my DROIDX

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I was taught to shoot center mass until the threat is no longer a threat. If this means death, so be it. Frequently it will, because I will fire at least two shots initially.

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    Ok just to stir the pot, the guy you see holding the gun at the clerk and you shot him, but come to find out the guy you shot was pointing his gun at the BG behind the clerk that you didn't see. just a thought might not want to be so quick to shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwhunter65 View Post
    Ok just to stir the pot, the guy you see holding the gun at the clerk and you shot him, but come to find out the guy you shot was pointing his gun at the BG behind the clerk that you didn't see. just a thought might not want to be so quick to shoot.
    Unfortunately, that is the risk you take for getting involved in situations you are not fully informed on. The reality is, you would still be legal in you shoot based on what you knew of the situation. It would still suck to have to deal with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mekender View Post
    Unfortunately, that is the risk you take for getting involved in situations you are not fully informed on. The reality is, you would still be legal in you shoot based on what you knew of the situation. It would still suck to have to deal with.
    Very true but you might get hit with a civil suite. I just wanted to point out things don't always seem what they appear we want to do what is right but, like someone told me before I carry a gun to defend myself and my family I am not a trained LEO. We will all need to live with the choices we make hopefully they are the right ones.

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    I am not a LEO either. However, If someone is committing an armed robbery within 30 or so feet of me, I would be forced to believe that my life was in immediate danger. Especially since there is a good likelihood that I could be targeted as a witness.

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    My CHP (see what I did there dreamer?) teacher told me that unless you are there to witness the whole altercation, then it would be *safer* to not become involved.

    However, if you walk into a store, and see some dude pointing a firearm at the clerk behind the counter, and saying "give me money (etc etc)" then it probably would be in your best interest to drop the BG (get rid of witnesses, etc). As others have stated though, you might want to wait until the gun isn't pointed at the guy behind the counter, because his finger might twitch in a reactionary movement.
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    Cool Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony_I_Am View Post
    Not being argumentative here, but I was taught just the oppostie in my security/private investigator/bodyguard courses. "I was shooting to kill because my life was in danger and I felt it was my life or his." If I was not shooting to kill then the retort by the P.A. is, "If you didn't want kill someone who was trying to kill you then you must not have felt your life was in imminent danger."
    I'm not saying you should appear to be glad you killed him. But if you only wanted to wound him, the threat must not have been escalated to the point that there was no other option.

    In your scenario, the acid test for me is "WOULD A REASONABLE PERSON IN YOUR SITUATION FEEL THAT HIS LIFE (OR THE LIFE OF A THIRD PERSON IF YOUR STATE STATUTE ALLOWS) WAS IN IMMINENT DANGER.

    If the question is yes, the shoot away. As one of my instructors told me, your life doesn't have to actually be in danger, but a reasonable person would have to FEEL THAT IT WAS. If the gun was pointed at the clerk, at a store often robbed, and the acts of the suspect was like a robbery, it is my belief that any rational, intelligent person would feel the clerks life was in imminent danger.

    Again, not being a troll, but my response in court is going to be "Yessir, I shot him with the intent to kill him. I regret he put me in that predicament, but my life was in danger and I felt it was my life or his and I felt I had to kill him to continue to live."

    This is one of the reasons you see in the news where the cops shot some guy 30 times and it isn't ruled a bad shoot. They are shooting to kill him, not to wound him or scare him away.
    Great post!! How about this scenario: BG at the counter, gun pointed at/near the clerk, BG demanding $$$.
    You walk in, armed, draw your weapon and the BG looks at you and says - 'Just wing me please, I only wanna do 6 months so I can get out of jail and rob again'.

    Not gonna happen IOW. Shoot, keep shooting, reload, continue to neutralize the threat if need be.....but only if he's standing still waiting for you to finally 'wing' him.
    I'd suggest some of you get out to the range and practice shooting moving targets, then come back and tell us how easy it is to 'shoot to wound' some BG on the run after you interrupted his robbery in progress.

    (since no-one else has said it) It seems some of you all carry weapons because you think it's cool but are not at all prepared for the consequences of taking a life in defense of your own.

    'I felt my life was in imminent danger' is the key here.

    Dogpile welcome.

  23. #23
    Regular Member REDFIVE48's Avatar
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    Shoot to Stop does not mean Shoot to Wound. Shoot center mass until the point the person is no longer a threat (you have now stopped the life threatening situation). No longer a threat may be that they are now dead, but if they flee or retreat, you have also stopped the situation, you may not pursue and kill the person. In that case, you are now the BG and if they were to turn on you and kill you, they are doing that in self-defense.

    Reasonable man interpretation of threat neutralized applies, so lets not get into the whole they retreated behind a set of shelves to move to a position of cover to regain the advantage, obviously in this case, they have not withdrawn completely from the situation.

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    Your honor The suspect was about to murder me ( or insert person here) Out of fear for my ( Or insert here) life I fired my weapon into the purpurtrator's body until his actions and movement (or lack thereof) caused me to believe that he or she was no longer capeable of imminent bodily harm or causing a fatality.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

  25. #25
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    (c) The person using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, and
    Careful of this little gem....

    Make sure it appears you were dragged into the situation, rather than injecting yourself into a situation you could have reasonably avoided otherwise.

    Just sayin...
    Last edited by rotorhead; 09-18-2010 at 09:07 AM.

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