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Thread: Do you wear the right holster when you OC?

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    Do you wear the right holster when you OC?

    Ask yourself a question: Do you wear the correct holster when you OC?

    The likely answer for many is no, though many will think they do. I apologize in advance if you have been duped into thinking your holster is appropriate for OC as it may not be. Trust me, I've been down this road and I'm still torn as to if I'd ever go back to a Level I retention.

    Examples of no-go OC holsters are ANY holster that is open top and has no retention other than possibly a pressure screw. Fobus open tops, Blackhawk open tops, leather open tops, and many others fit this bill and should be considered a BAD idea when you OC. No matter how much you think being able to draw with only that retention screw or pressure from the rivets is essential, it can be a negative even more than a positive.

    Any person at any time could easily walk up and remove your firearm from the holster and by the time you feel the action starting it's likely already too late to go into retention mode. Retention screws and rivets give out and the rivets can eventually weaken the kydex or plastic.

    To prevent this issue a minimum of at least 1 secondary retention device should be incorporated in your holster. Be it a top snap (must fit properly too), a trigger guard catch (like in the Serpa and CQC and some others), and other retention options. Granted I'm not suggesting a LEO level III or IV, I'm suggesting that you, the shooter, realize that your bottom level I holster likely is inadequate for OC and in some cases for CCW.

    When I was deployed at Ft. Benning, Ga., we were issued the military death-flap holsters and quickly discarded them and went with Safariland. I failed to see any reliability in them as they were used and abused to say the least...snaps didn't work, some were missing snaps or straps, and even the retention screws didn't work. I stepped it up a notch and went Uncle Mike's Duty Level III and was pleasantly surprised.

    This was a holster that allowed someone else to pick me up off the ground without breaking my holster or removing my firearm...unless they knew exactly how to remove it from the holster which was tricky. I had a new found faith in Level II and Level III holsters for OC at that point. I even managed to be able to draw from that holster much faster than the other guys could from the Safariland or the death-flap.

    So evaluate your holster choices carefully as you might be making a bad choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    SNIP Ask yourself a question: Do you wear the correct holster when you OC?...

    The likely answer for many is no, though many will think they do.
    (laff)

    That's right. The OPer is now an authority on the "correct" holster for OC. In fact, he alone determines what is correct! And, he has the altitude to preach to us--because he has the "correct" holster, of course.

    And, lots of us were unknowingly wrong all along. Boy, what a bunch of short-sighted idiots we've been. And we never knew it. And wouldn't have known if the OPer hadn't shone a light into our benighted ignorance. What a deep debt of gratitude we owe to this self-important, arrogant, insulting benevolent contributor.

    (hahaha)


    Oh, I almost forgot. We should also accept his unstated premise that any risk is total danger, requiring maximum concern and effort. Imagine how ungrateful we would be if we did not adopt that as our guiding policy in all areas of life!

    (hahahahaha)
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-03-2010 at 01:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (laff)

    That's right. The OPer is now an authority on the "correct" holster for OC. In fact, he alone determines what is correct! And, he has the altitude to preach to us--because he has the "correct" holster, of course.

    And, lots of us were unknowingly wrong all along. Boy, what a bunch of short-sighted idiots we've been. And we never knew it. And wouldn't have known if the OPer hadn't shone a light into our benighted ignorance. What a deep debt of gratitude we owe to this self-important, arrogant, insulting benevolent contributor.

    (hahaha)


    Oh, I almost forgot. We should also accept his unstated premise that any risk is total danger, requiring maximum concern and effort. Imagine how ungrateful we would be if we did not adopt that as our guiding policy in all areas of life!

    (hahahahaha)
    + 1 what Citizen said.

    I read the OP and thought "What a yo-yo"

    Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    + 1 what Citizen said.

    I read the OP and thought "What a yo-yo"

    Steve
    You have to keep in mind there is useful data in his post. You just have to wade through thick self-annointedness, and insult to find it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-03-2010 at 02:41 AM.

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    Perfect!
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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    My head hurts....
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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    the OP's post is full of FAIL. i disagree with most of what he said. in fact, i'm going to go so far as to say that Level I retention is sufficient for open carry. situational awareness is a more valuable retention device than any gadget you'd find on a holster. if your awareness is low enough that you allow someone to sneak up and you and try a gun grab, then Level II or III....it doesn't make a difference. work on mindset before relying on gear.

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    I would like to remind some of the posters/readers of this thread that though this person's attitude is childish and vaguely despicable in its proselytizing, it is also the same argument and verbiage used to decry certain caliber handguns and styles.

    So...think about that the next time you choose to criticize someone's choice of open carry armament. Those who play that game sound as dumb and officious as this guy.

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    Dang, I guess we are all just lucky to have lived so long without having heard this jokers words of wisdom. I hope he will continue to bless us with truth and light (NOT).
    If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jahwarrior72 View Post
    the OP's post is full of FAIL. i disagree with most of what he said. in fact, i'm going to go so far as to say that Level I retention is sufficient for open carry. situational awareness is a more valuable retention device than any gadget you'd find on a holster. if your awareness is low enough that you allow someone to sneak up and you and try a gun grab, then Level II or III....it doesn't make a difference. work on mindset before relying on gear.
    A few Kato drills would change your mind. The OP has the right idea, and gives valuable information -- even if you don't like the manner of preaching that he uses.

    Situational awareness is vital -- but it isn't sufficient. For instance, if I come up behind you while you are carrying a heavy box into the UPS store, your SA will only muddy the waters -- am I there to disarm you, or trying to help you get the door open? Should you drop the box to protect your pistol, or is it unnecessary?

    I OC'd day in and day out for decades with my open rig -- a week using Level II changed my mind forever. I will now only use the open holster either at alumni shoots or when I'm wearing "Fabric Level II" (a coat).

    Now I'm using IWB for a couple of weeks (with the shirt tucked under it so it's not CCW), to decide if that's the way to go. If not, the only other question is if I should buy another Serpa (I took the other one back after the tryout period) or try some other Level II . . .not whether I will OC in public without positive retention of some type.

    Think about it -- you MAY need your pistol today. You WILL carry it, just as you did yesterday and all the days before that, so your carry rig is if vital importance. The half-second that you might lose clearing the retention is a lot less important than the pistol remaining in your possession until the moment you need it. It will do you no good if the bad guy's buddy snags it while the bad guy has your attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You have to keep in mind there is useful data in his post. You just have to wade through thick self-annointedness, and insult to find it.

    Sorry. but I disagree, I found little in the OP that was of substance.

    I'm done with this one.

    Steve



    After some thought on my original post, I realized that there was some useful information and as Citizen correctly points out you just need to dig through the self anointed, pretentious, condescending literary style of writing to find it.

    Steve
    Last edited by .45acp; 09-04-2010 at 12:45 AM. Reason: I was wrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (laff)

    That's right. The OPer is now an authority on the "correct" holster for OC. In fact, he alone determines what is correct! And, he has the altitude to preach to us--because he has the "correct" holster, of course.

    And, lots of us were unknowingly wrong all along. Boy, what a bunch of short-sighted idiots we've been. And we never knew it. And wouldn't have known if the OPer hadn't shone a light into our benighted ignorance. What a deep debt of gratitude we owe to this self-important, arrogant, insulting benevolent contributor.

    (hahaha)


    Oh, I almost forgot. We should also accept his unstated premise that any risk is total danger, requiring maximum concern and effort. Imagine how ungrateful we would be if we did not adopt that as our guiding policy in all areas of life!

    (hahahahaha)
    Whether I agree with the original poster or not is irrelevant. The fact that he can articulate his thoughts and rationales in a coherent and refined fashion, makes any argument he makes superior to yours. Granted, I'm sure that you do not foster any feelings for anyone's arguments but your own and those you agree with (in regards to this forum). It would be a self improvement, in my opinion, to be less careless with your emotions when you disagree with someone.

    I believe that the poster raises a valid argument, as one can't be in a perfect state of situational awareness one hundred percent of the time. I would rather have a "fail-safe" to fall back on, rather than the thought that "Well, I'll just train so that it won't happen to me." Indeed, having an additional retention device (other than passive) hardly limits the draw time of a firearm. I would also argue that in some cases it can help your control of the firearm wherein it trains you proper placement of your trigger finger. I acknowledge that this is something you can train, and many of us do, but having that little extra "something" is beneficial. Coupled with the supplementary security features, I can understand why so many choose to have a higher degree of retention on their holster.

    The fact of the matter is, assuming your assailant isn't familiar with retention devices, a level 2 holster provides more security. That, I think, is not arguable. Of course, it is up to the person in question if they feel that extra security, but to dismiss someone's argument because you don't agree with it is immature.
    Last edited by Tekniqe; 09-04-2010 at 09:27 PM.

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    thats the ticket

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonLW View Post
    Perfect!
    I love it...lmao where can i get one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (laff)

    That's right. The OPer is now an authority on the "correct" holster for OC. In fact, he alone determines what is correct! And, he has the altitude to preach to us--because he has the "correct" holster, of course.

    And, lots of us were unknowingly wrong all along. Boy, what a bunch of short-sighted idiots we've been. And we never knew it. And wouldn't have known if the OPer hadn't shone a light into our benighted ignorance. What a deep debt of gratitude we owe to this self-important, arrogant, insulting benevolent contributor.

    (hahaha)


    Oh, I almost forgot. We should also accept his unstated premise that any risk is total danger, requiring maximum concern and effort. Imagine how ungrateful we would be if we did not adopt that as our guiding policy in all areas of life!

    (hahahahaha)
    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    + 1 what Citizen said.

    I read the OP and thought "What a yo-yo"

    Steve
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You have to keep in mind there is useful data in his post. You just have to wade through thick self-annointedness, and insult to find it.


    Just proves there are a bunch of folks on this board that are ignorant to how to safely carry and haven't a clue as they would rather target others than engage in the conversation.

    The information in my OP is based on personal experience through firearm instruction, military service, military LEO service, and a lot of hours logged on ranges shooting still and combat scenarios where I've had to personally deal with the issues or aid others with their issues of the Level I retention holster.

    In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that many of those on this board that use Level I holsters (and I do have them in my stable) don't ever check the retention screws to make sure they're not backing out. Wait, that's right...you folks would rather point out issues with others than admit that you fall in this category.

    The crap on this board has made me start wondering how many of the members actually have dust bunnies nesting in their carry firearms or have them seated in holsters that will give that distinct "pop" when removed from the holster because they've been in there for months.

    But again, I keep forgetting that so many on this board fail to train themselves properly. It's clearly illustrated by some of the foolish smarminess in responses. And that likely illustrates that the bulk of the membership here has absolutely no clue about weapon retention or what it even entails.

    So go back to playing your fantasy football (it's D&D for those who bashed D&D players as kids, it just makes you more pathetic as an adult) and stay off my threads if you cannot constructively contribute.

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    Havin' a bad day, Jimmy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    Havin' a bad day, Jimmy?
    Not at all. Actually had a good match today and have a class to teach tomorrow. I simply cannot stand stupidity of those who like to be hypocrites simply because they have been on the board a while.

    They're the kinds of folks I pull out of my classes and tell to keep their mouths shut or leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Just proves there are a bunch of folks on this board that are ignorant to how to safely carry and haven't a clue as they would rather target others than engage in the conversation.

    The information in my OP is based on personal experience through firearm instruction, military service, military LEO service, and a lot of hours logged on ranges shooting still and combat scenarios where I've had to personally deal with the issues or aid others with their issues of the Level I retention holster.

    In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that many of those on this board that use Level I holsters (and I do have them in my stable) don't ever check the retention screws to make sure they're not backing out. Wait, that's right...you folks would rather point out issues with others than admit that you fall in this category.

    The crap on this board has made me start wondering how many of the members actually have dust bunnies nesting in their carry firearms or have them seated in holsters that will give that distinct "pop" when removed from the holster because they've been in there for months.

    But again, I keep forgetting that so many on this board fail to train themselves properly. It's clearly illustrated by some of the foolish smarminess in responses. And that likely illustrates that the bulk of the membership here has absolutely no clue about weapon retention or what it even entails.

    So go back to playing your fantasy football (it's D&D for those who bashed D&D players as kids, it just makes you more pathetic as an adult) and stay off my threads if you cannot constructively contribute.

    My issue with your OP is that you come across as a self appointed expert that suddenly discovered a new holster and NOW that you have discovered the errors of your way...well by golly everyone else is wrong. You remind me of an ex drunk fresh from a 12 step program.

    You don't know a thing about the people on this board their experience or training. You do let your magnum mouth overload pellet gunass on a regular basis.

    I personally don't use retention. I OC and CC the same holster everyday all day....do I care what your opinion is....not in the least. And by the way my friend...it is just your opinion...and everyone has em. It is not like you have a BRAND NEW IDEA and just want to share......take a search though many gun forums......this discussion has been done many, many times.

    You seem to take pains to ensure you come across as a know it all jerk......well you got one part right.


    Steve
    Last edited by .45acp; 09-04-2010 at 11:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post

    They're the kinds of folks I pull out of my classes and tell to keep their mouths shut or leave.
    Say it aint so!

    I suspect that with your attitude, you don have a lot of return students. What I can't understand is why you bother, the best instructors I have had never stopped learning.

    Whereas you obviously have nothing left to learn, and lack the patience or leadership to teach.

    Dipstick is about right.
    Last edited by .45acp; 09-05-2010 at 12:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Not at all. Actually had a good match today and have a class to teach tomorrow. I simply cannot stand stupidity of those who like to be hypocrites simply because they have been on the board a while.

    They're the kinds of folks I pull out of my classes and tell to keep their mouths shut or leave.
    Well, you're not in charge here so I don't plan on anyone keeping their mouth shut or leaving.

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    What is this retention level you speak of dip stick? I just shove my gat in the front of my pants. Is that not good?

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    Red face

    Jimmy, please tell me what class you teach, so that I make sure not to attend. It's not a good idea to come on this board and call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant or stupid.

    On behalf of "dipstick", I apologize to everyone for his behavior. Now, back to the to OP. My "opinion" has always been that if you are going to OC, that it's probably a good idea to have a good holster, one that doesn't flop around, some sort of retention or "push button" release.

    Now with that being said, it is also in my opinion that the person OCing, should have the holster that they are comfortable with and one that works for their style. This may or may not be any holster with a retention. It's like when people ask me, whats a good gun or what gun should I get? I tell them, the best gun is the one that works best for you and one that you are comfortable with. My "best gun" isn't always going to be their "best gun", just as in what I think is a good holster may or may not work for someone else.

    The OC'er has to take responsibility, maintain some sort of situational awareness, and OC the way they are comfortable with. I could go on and on, but my coffee is getting cold. Have a good day all, even you "dipstick".
    Last edited by dchoepp; 09-05-2010 at 01:26 PM.

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    The information in my OP is based on personal experience through <snip> military LEO service,
    I believe this clearly explains Jimmy's condescending attitude.

    Who here has ever had to deal with Military Police?

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    Regular Member MamaLiberty's Avatar
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    And we've all read the thousands of stories where those who OC have had their guns grabbed out of their holsters by just anyone passing by...

    Oh wait...
    I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

    Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law except the natural law of "mala en se." I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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    OK...now that most of the snark is out of everyones system (mine included... :-) ) I'm going to take issue with the OP on the grounds that there is no *right* holster, and no *wrong* holster...

    The selection of a holster is as much a personal preference as the selection of the firearm which we choose to carry. Some folks don't like the recoil of a .45...and choose to carry a .380 instead. They practice with it, dry fire it, practice their draw, etc...and become proficient in the handling of their chosen weapon. That being said, I would place a person who practices consisently and thoroughly with their KelTec or Ruger LCP up against a so-called RKBA proponent who has to carry the biggest baddest 1911 every day and has, maybe, shot a total of 100 rounds through it, any day of the week. And I dare say I would put my money on the guy (or gal) with the LCP every time, because they would outshoot the blowhard with the 1911 who spends more time polishing it than shooting it, and who worries about the amount of dust clinging to the innards of his holster that will make microscopic scratches on his slide that may bring the value of his firearm down from uber-super-mega-ultimate-mint to just mint, and loosing a whole dollar and a half in trade-in value...

    The best holster for OC? Its the one that you use every day, practice with every day, and are aware of every day. Situational awareness is paramount when you carry, and having a holster that makes it difficult for someone to *snatch* the weapon from you when you aren't expecting it just means that you aren't paying attention to your surroundings...and if you are carrying and not paying as much attention as you should to what's going on around you, that in and of itself is epic FAIL. To depend on a holster to make up for your lack of situational awareness is a sad statement.
    Last edited by DragonLW; 09-06-2010 at 12:38 PM.

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    well said Dragon.

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