Pulaski, VA Town Ordinance - can they do this????

Hi, I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I'm on a few other forums, but they don't speak specifically to open carry.

I was told today by the new town fire marshall that in his training to become such he learned the Town of Pulaski has an ordinance prohibiting open carry (I wasn't OCing at the time, but he knows I OC at times). He said he was never aware of this ordinance working for the town until he took this new position. In this role, he is a law enforcement officer and carries a handgun himself and was told this in his training with the town police.

I don't live in town, but I frequent the town so this is a rather important issue for me to resolve or understand. I've OC'd in the town of Pulaski for several years and have had conversations with officers while OCing with no issues at all. I was under the impression that the town could not prohibit OC, but I couldn't locate anything specifically speaking to that. I've searched for the ordinance and I can't locate it anywhere either.

Can anyone point me in the right direction as to anything that speaks to whether a locality can prohibit OC in Virginia? Thank you.


PS. My co-worker was in Richmond this weekend and had a small .380 in his back pocket while getting coffee in a convenience store. Apparently the grip was slightly showing and a police officer approached him in the store and told him in VA you could either open carry or concealed carry, but not kind of both. He said "ok" and pushed it down a little. I told him I did not believe the officer was correct. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

No...

No, they can't do it.

State Preemption

Found here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915

No they can not.

PS. My co-worker was in Richmond this weekend and had a small .380 in his back pocket while getting coffee in a convenience store. Apparently the grip was slightly showing and a police officer approached him in the store and told him in VA you could either open carry or concealed carry, but not kind of both. He said "ok" and pushed it down a little. I told him I did not believe the officer was correct. Any thoughts on this? Thanks.

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I hope he ment CC without license, because if the cop said you could not CCW with a license and he got arrested or something crazy then could have been lawsuit.
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http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+15.2-915.2

I am confused here, can they do this? I thought 15.2-915 said no ordinace can not be made? But this says for rifle and shotgun.

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§ 15.2-915.2. Regulation of transportation of a loaded rifle or shotgun.

The governing body of any county or city may by ordinance make it unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road, or highway within such locality. Any violation of such ordinance shall be punishable by a fine of not more than $100. Conservation police officers, sheriffs and all other law-enforcement officers shall enforce the provisions of this section. No ordinance adopted pursuant to this section shall be enforceable unless the governing body adopting such ordinance so notifies the Director of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries by registered mail prior to May 1 of the year in which such ordinance is to take effect.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to duly authorized law-enforcement officers or military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, nor to any person who reasonably believes that a loaded rifle or shotgun is necessary for his personal safety in the course of his employment or business.

(1976, c. 506, § 18.2-287.1; 1977, c. 377; 1989, c. 50; 2004, c. 462.)

Its probably an old local law that hasn't been removed.

BugDude said:

I was told today by the new town fire marshall that in his training to become such he learned the Town of Pulaski has an ordinance prohibiting open carry (I wasn't OCing at the time, but he knows I OC at times). He said he was never aware of this ordinance working for the town until he took this new position. In this role, he is a law enforcement officer and carries a handgun himself and was told this in his training with the town police.

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1. Welcome to OCDO.

2. Anytime you speak with someone that tells you that you can't do something you should get their name. If you find out they were wrong, you can go back to them and educate them on what they had said in error. If they were right, you can thank them for educating you.

Thanks for the info!!! I know the Fire Marshall, so I'll print the legislation for him so he can properly inform those at the town. I've never had an issue with it.


My buddy in Richmond, the officer told him you could either open carry or concealed carry (with a CHP), but if you concealed it had to be completely covered. I've seen nothing on this at all and think the officer was wrong. Since my friend has his CHP and way carrying concealed (although not as effectively concealed as he thought), he just slid it down a tad and went on his way.

BugDude said:

the officer told him you could either open carry or concealed carry (with a CHP)

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correct

BugDude said:

(although not as effectively concealed as he thought)

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if the cop saw it and knew it was a gun by what he saw, then my argument would be that your froend was Openly Carrying.

if you concealed it had to be completely covered.

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If it's not "hidden from common observation", it's open carry.

I found a link which seems to contain the Pulaski Town ordinances, but not sure if it's complete or up to date.

I found several references to gun, firearms, conceal, concealed, but nothing along the lines of what the OP has reported. Nothing at odds with the Preemption statute.

http://www.pulaskitown.org/pulaskiphotogallery.aspx

As for the half visible / half concealed... there is no such thing. See references to the "Virginia Tuck", which got many folks through the dark ages of no concealed carry in restaurants.

I suspect this officer was passing along old wives tales, which were probably originated by someone who though seemed to be in a position of authority, just made it up. Just a guess.

TFred

Perhaps the OP meant that there is a policy for fire marshals to not open carry. Which is not unheard of as some law enforcement agencies have a policy prohibiting its officers from open carrying while off duty.

I talked with the fire marshall (who does open carry while on the job...he's a sworn law enforcement officer) and I e-mailed him the links. He said he is going to bring it to their attention and fight it if they don't fix it. He is a supporter and was just as astonished to learn of this as I was. He was very thankful that I sent him the resource info.

The Richmond incident with my buddy, the officer told him if you concealed carry (with CHP), it has to be all the way concealed, which I know isn't right. My friend said he wasn't going to argue about it, but it didn't seem right to him either. I probably would have pushed it down and said, "that's fine, but it's not exactly accurate." Who knows where it would have gone from there. Thanks for all of the assistance. Take care.

I have no clue why a fire marshal would be prohibited. I know we EMT's can't open carry while were on duty because sometimes we have to go to jails and whenever we go to hospitals we would have to leave it behind in the ambulance, which is always running, and unlocked. I'm not about to leave my BBW full sized USP in the ambulance where anyone can open the door and rummage through out cabinets.

fire marshals don't have to deal with any of that though so...?????

BugDude said:

I talked with the fire marshall (who does open carry while on the job...he's a sworn law enforcement officer) and I e-mailed him the links. He said he is going to bring it to their attention and fight it if they don't fix it. He is a supporter and was just as astonished to learn of this as I was. He was very thankful that I sent him the resource info.

The Richmond incident with my buddy, the officer told him if you concealed carry (with CHP), it has to be all the way concealed, which I know isn't right. My friend said he wasn't going to argue about it, but it didn't seem right to him either. I probably would have pushed it down and said, "that's fine, but it's not exactly accurate." Who knows where it would have gone from there. Thanks for all of the assistance. Take care.

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It really doesn't matter whether he brings it "to their attention and fight it if they don't fix it" or not. Virginia law is clear and Pulaski cannot supersede state law in this matter.

BTW, welcome aboard. We're happy to have you here with us.

i am glad this is hashed out since i am frequently in pulaski. i don't carry when i am working, but i do, when i go into stores


in NC a few years ago. my brother-n-law, who had to make large cash deposits from his business, always carried a S&W body guard in his back pocket with the handle sticking out ( with a VA tuck ). he didn't have a concealed permission slip. he stopped by a convenience store on the way home. there was a leo there and seen the gun, greetings were exchange. the leo watched as my b-n-l's shirt tail fall over the handle, so he arrested him. the statement was that when the handle was exposed it was legal but with the handle covered it was concealed. case was thrown out for lack of evidence ( or that the fees were paid ), but it did cost him a bit of money. just thought it was relevant.

This horse is on its last few gasps... but just to add a final few cents worth...

The general consensus is that you don't win arguments with LEOs "on the side of the road", which also extends to everywhere else you may have a disagreement. As noted earlier, ask for a card, or at least a name, so that you can follow up with references to where and how the officer was in error. This removes the confrontation aspect, and allows the officer to learn something without losing face.

As far as the semi-concealed issue goes... one of the classic stories that goes around was the LEO who saw a concealed weapon, arrested the person, etc, etc, got in front of the judge. Judge asks the officer how he knew the person had a concealed handgun. Officer says something to the effect of "I saw it".... "Handgun was visible, case dismissed". Don't know if it really happened, but it's funny.

TFred

The confusion about 'printing' or partially concealed comes from states that do not have OC.

Cops are not trained on what is legal, they are trained on what is illegal. Often that can lead to stupid choices when cops get the wrong mentality. By wrong mentality I mean, they start thinking WHY instead of WHY NOT. Anything they don't see a reason for, or is outside of what they consider normal, becomes illegal by default. Obviously backwards, but it is a common problem I find when interacting with police (or non-leo). Even in positive interactions.

804emt said:

I have no clue why a fire marshal would be prohibited. I know we EMT's can't open carry while were on duty because sometimes we have to go to jails

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You can't conceal carry then either.

Response from the Chief...

Thanks Chief, I thought so. I will investigate further and will let you know if I come up with anything. If you don't hear back from me, I thank you for your time, service and you may consider this issue closed.

Ed


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Gary Roche <groche@pulaskitown.org> wrote: