Tacoma Police Shooting of Knife Wielding Man

This is starting to feel like the movie "Ground Hog Day"

http://www.kirotv.com/news/24876030/detail.html

There appears to be at least 6 civilian deaths

at the hands of law enforcment this last week.

Goodness.

tazer death

bottom of the article says cops tazed a man on tuesday and he died..
anybody know about that story?

gogodawgs said:

at the hands of law enforcment this last week.

Goodness.

Click to expand...

Enough that I would start looking at what they are being taught. How many years on the force, when they went through the Academy, and what the Academy is teaching on how to handle situations like this.

Everyone seems to refer to the "Tueller Drill" when discussing people with knives. This "Drill" is not justification to just shoot anyone that has a knife in their hand. They must truly constitute a threat. Of course when you are an officer you can always "say" I commanded him "x" times to put down the knife and he refused therefore I shot him. What was the reason that it was necessary he put down the knife right now? Was he threatening others? Why not "dance around" and avoid him until backup arrives?

But unlike regular citizens, police officers are wearing vests, have extensive training in hand-hand combat, disarming suspects, etc. Seems like lately they just shoot.

with the recent "rash" of PD involved shootings it begs the question that How many of those would have been acceptable if it was you or me and not some LEO?

If we had reacted the same way would we have been charged with a crime? Convicted even?

There is no clear pattern of contact or engagement. Out of an approximately 740 hours in BLEA, DT and firearms constitutes less than 180 hours total. There has to be a balance in the entire training and if you believe that recruit officers receive extensive "hand-to-hand" training, you are sadly mistaken.

Dennis Tueller (now with Glock) makes it clear that the idea he postulated was merely a start to a reaction distance. Even the oft mentioned 21 feet is considered too close.

At what point do you keep yelling at a threat to drop the knife before you are DUTY bound and obligated to stop a dangerous threat from escaping into the community? In the case of Tacoma, a reasonable person can presume that stabbing at cars, occupied or not, is a threat. Dance around? Seriously? Would you merely dance around if someone was on your property threatening you with a knife? While you can make an effort to retreat and not be sued for it, WE CAN and we do get sued for inaction.

In case you forgot, soft body armor is NOT stab proof. Hell, they are not even stab resistant for patrol cops. Slashing? Maybe. But unless you have a specific stab resistant soft body armor system, what you wear won't protect you.

If you think all we do is just shoot versus threat assessment and elimination sans firearms, then again, you have no clue. Examine ANY agency in the area. Look at the total calls for service, total contacts with EDPs, successful resolutions without the use of deadly force. Think about how many times a citizen draws a firearm in self defense without having to shoot someone to solve a threat. But ANY time someone brings a knife out, the use of force continnum changes.

As a reminder . . .

http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20100903/WRT0101/100903058/-1/archive

If you wish to learn more versus laying out incorrect information, I would suggest a ride along.

Help is on the way:

http://www.safariland.com/NewsPressDetail.aspx?Id=165

amlevin said:

Help is on the way:

http://www.safariland.com/NewsPressDetail.aspx?Id=165

Click to expand...

Doesn't cover the carotid, the wrists, the face, or half a dozen other places where someone could get stabbed with a 'street-legal' 3-1/4" knife and bleed out in a matter of 30 seconds or less. NO type of clothing/vest/etc... turns a human being into 'ROBOCOP.' Knife threats are real, and the attacks are ugly, and the results are devastating. I know this first-hand.

Although, if you're volunteering to wear one of these and let a drunk or high homeless guy stab at you for a while, hope that works out for you. You make it seem like it's alright to expect cops to volunteer for that, which it isn't.

Don't wanna get shot by a cop, don't approach one in a threatening manner with a lethal weapon in your hand.

amlevin said:

But unlike regular citizens, police officers are wearing vests, have extensive training in hand-hand combat, disarming suspects, etc. Seems like lately they just shoot.

Click to expand...

Whaaa?
Are you saying the officer has to engage in hand to hand combat if the bad guy has a knife?
I know a 8th degree black belt instructor that carries a gun.

5 people killed in one week
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/102234029.html

I just posted this in another thread....
You need 4 things to shoot someone dead.

Means - does the attacker have the means to harm you (or someone around you)

Opportunity - in this case it would be range was the person in range of you.. (not across the street for example)

Intent - do you know the person is going to; burglar, arson, rob, rape or kidnap
OR
I.D.O.L. - immediate defense of life (yours or someone around you)

Mapnapkin said:

You need 4 things to shoot someone dead.

Means - does the attacker have the means to harm you (or someone around you)

Opportunity - in this case it would be range was the person in range of you.. (not across the street for example)

Intent - do you know the person is going to; burglar, arson, rob, rape or kidnap
OR
I.D.O.L. - immediate defense of life (yours or someone around you)

Click to expand...

The City of Seattle has restricted knife possession to 3.5" or less and no fixed blades of any length. Wasn't that to prevent anyone from carrying a potentially deadly weapon?

A chronic alcoholic with a bad leg and a hearing disability.

Whittling or carving according to most accounts. What's the crime?

Who escalated? Accounts vary.

So far I'm not sure all the "criteria" were present. Are you?

amlevin said:

So far I'm not sure all the "criteria" were present. Are you?

Click to expand...

I know what you mean.
I don't know.
can't even begin to guess

Back on topic ladies...
That was Seattle. Now we're talking about someone dancing around in a Tacoma bus stop wielding a knife. He wasn't sitting and carving a totem.

[/cat herding]

It's hard to really know what happened unless I witnessed it. I've learned that even by reading many news articles, that many of them can be biased, and may contain skewered information at the discretion of the media writing the article. I can only hope the officers in question used judgment to the best of their abilities, and weren't simply trigger happy because a man 40' away refused to drop a knife.