My recent encounter with LEO's

jtrider said:

I'll quote you as often as I can to let the Tin God in on what he's missing. Unless I'm on ignore already, then I'm like you, on a path of ever lasting ignorance and social unsuitability....

So. See if I got this straight....Tin God speaks, peons gobble and swallow. Naysayers are banned to the Land of Nod, East of Eden. That how it works? Dog ate my OC.org starter kit, so I'm kinda winging it.

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Uh, that's pretty much it.

Wow, I didn't realize eye had got under your skin so bad. Can we try to get this thing back on topic? And I don't mean the "Do cops work for us?" rabbit trail, I mean helping Publius with his situation.

I think you handled it just fine. I don't know that I would have been as blatant about the recording device, but Alabama is a one-party permission state, so I don't have to let them know I am recording. YMMV. I'm glad you live somewhere you have a good relationship with the local PD. That's got to be a great advantage when trying to OC in California.

Discretionary power.. They love it.

In the Deleware post-they will nail you with disorderly conduct to keep you in line..

Guys, this is pretty cut and dry, and eye95 is right. Do you have hire/fire authority on LEOs? Can you make the decision to cut or raise pay? Are they obligated to do what you say, and follow your orders and commands?

No?

Then they are not your employees, and do not work for you. As eye stated, they are supposed to serve you.

sultan62 said:

Guys, this is pretty cut and dry, and eye95 is right. Do you have hire/fire authority on LEOs? Can you make the decision to cut or raise pay? Are they obligated to do what you say, and follow your orders and commands?

No?

Then they are not your employees, and do not work for you. As eye stated, they are supposed to serve you.

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roll eyes.....

sultan62 said:

Guys, this is pretty cut and dry, and eye95 is right. Do you have hire/fire authority on LEOs? Can you make the decision to cut or raise pay? Are they obligated to do what you say, and follow your orders and commands?

No?

Then they are not your employees, and do not work for you. As eye stated, they are supposed to serve you.

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I don't believe I implied otherwise. I did ask for clarification on the "FACT" that we have no ability to "take any actions". It depends on how the situation is viewed, doesn't it?

And there is little that is cut and dried in life. Things change, and so does our ability to deal with them.

"Take any PERSONNEL actions."

RIF.

Since it seems that my post (#4) started this little ruckus about LEO's and for whom they work, I felt it necessary to step in and get the love going again as it seemed to vanish a might among some of the members.

Firstly, I stand by my statement and an in disagreement with eye95 about this issue. This does not mean I don't respect or welcome opposing views from him or anyone else. It just means my view differs from his. Really that simple. I base mine upon the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, as well as the words of the Founders. We The People own the government and all that falls under its domain. They belong to Us. And as such, we can alter or disband part or all of the government should we see the need to do so.

So that is where I get my position. And once again, I certainly do respect other members thoughts and opinions, and welcome civil and normal discourse accordingly.

The problem that I have with statements like, "LEOs work for us," is that they carry the implication that we are in charge of any interaction with a LEO. As offensive to me as it is that LEOs think that they are in charge of the interaction, I find it equally offensive that we think we are.

They are part of "We the People" too. They have been tasked with a particularly difficult job and deserve to be treated with the same respect we expect from them. In the interaction, as long as both sides are law-abiding, both the LEO and the non-LEO are equals. Neither one of us works for or is a subject of the other.

Arrogance is arrogance, whether it comes from the LEO or the non-LEO. People would be amazed at how profitable these incidents can be when both the LEO and the non-LEO stay off the power-trip and treat each other like adults.

eye95 said:

Arrogance is arrogance, whether it comes from the LEO or the non-LEO. People would be amazed at how profitable these incidents can be when both the LEO and the non-LEO stay off the power-trip and treat each other like adults.

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Amen to this. I couldn't agree more. Being Southern, of course I was brought up with Southern values, one of which was showing respect to others. My mom had a wonderful way of dealing with people. He taught me to treat people with dignity and respect until they gave you reason not to. Then just avoid them. I find this works quite well for me.

And you continually demonstrate that respect on the boards. Thanks.

I see eyes point...but disagree with the reasoning and mentality.

As he brought out they serve us....which makes them a servant....what do servants do for you? Well they do your work you want done...thus they work for you.

So although it may be indirectly, because they are hired or fired by other entities (that work for us too)....they still work for us. The only way that civilian police force is allowed is that they are more restrained constitutionally than we are although they no longer seem to think so.

If we revolt and stop paying taxes (saying this for an example, and something the founding fathers understood and would encourage against, "authorities" who didn't serve us properly). We would then be in a matter of speaking firing our employees. When we vote for referundums and taxes that put these agencies in place we are in effect hiring these folks to do a job we want done.

A more apt example would be, as a contractor, you hire me to build your home, I in turn hire employees to help me on your project. Now I have seen this happen, although only one time to me, You and one or two of my employees get into it maybe even heatedly. You as my employer can demand that those employees are no longer allowed on your project/private property. So although you it is indirectly, you can effect the employment of my employees. You can also choose to use me or not use me for future work, because of the actions of my employee's. Affecting whether or not they have work.

This is why I feel it is necessary to file complaints/compliments against authorities it can have an effect.

My point in saying they work for us is that Public Servants need to have the respect for us that we employ them and to not abuse their "authority" invested to them by us. If they don't feel this way they shouldn't be a public servant. Unfortunately many in Public sector don't feel this way. And that is what is tragic.

While you are not required to give id or your name, consider how they took it when you asked them to do what you just refused to. Not saying you did anything wrong, but It kinda works both ways. My 2 cents.

Take the high road, the view is clearer and it's a better place to sight your artillery.

Not all who serve are servants in the way you mean, not like a servant in your employ, more like a server at a restaurant. You hope to have him do what you want, but, ultimately, he should do what his actual employer wants him to do, which, we hope, lines up with what you want him to do.

NRAMARINE said:

While you are not required to give id or your name, consider how they took it when you asked them to do what you just refused to. Not saying you did anything wrong, but It kinda works both ways. My 2 cents.

Take the high road, the view is clearer and it's a better place to sight your artillery.

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I don't know the law where the OP is from, but LEOs in Alabama may only demand your name and address if they have RAS that you have committed a crime, are committing a crime, or are about to commit a crime.

If they are not allowed to demand, one is not required to answer.

NRAMARINE said:

While you are not required to give id or your name, consider how they took it when you asked them to do what you just refused to. Not saying you did anything wrong, but It kinda works both ways. My 2 cents.

Take the high road, the view is clearer and it's a better place to sight your artillery.

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It's why I carry sterile. If they have no RAS, they have no business detaining me.

eye95 said:

Not all who serve are servants in the way you mean, not like a servant in your employ, more like a server at a restaurant. You hope to have him do what you want, but, ultimately, he should do what his actual employer wants him to do, which, we hope, lines up with what you want him to do.

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I never heard of the term "public server".....

Two things,

#1
Those who work for the Government are not "public servants", because they get a paycheck which makes them "public employees".

#2

NRAMARINE said:

While you are not required to give id or your name, consider how they took it when you asked them to do what you just refused to. Not saying you did anything wrong, but It kinda works both ways. My 2 cents.

Take the high road, the view is clearer and it's a better place to sight your artillery.

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Their is a substantive difference. When they ask my name, I am not legally required to do so and they want my name so that they can hopefully find a reason to put me in a cage. When I ask them for their names it is so they can be held accountable to the Law, as they are REQUIRED to ID themselves while in uniform and on duty.

Not giving away my rights is taking the high road, by being consistent, my view is never obscured.

Publius said:

Two things,

#1
Those who work for the Government are not "public servants", because they get a paycheck which makes them "public employees".

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I would disagree and so do the dictionaries.......
serv·ant
   /ˈsɜr

vənt/ Show Spelled[sur-vuh

nt] Show IPA
–noun 1. a person employed by another, esp. to perform domestic duties.

2. a person in the service of another.

3. a person employed by the government: a public servant.

Yes, public servants, including LEOs, do work for us, the public. I have just begun a 10 week course in the Seattle Community Police Academy. This is for civilians only, is no cost to us; the purpose is to build greater understanding and harmony between LE and the public they serve. The first part of the program last night was given by a woman who is the director of OPA-Office of Professional Accountability, who is a civilian by the way. And she said yes, they do work for us. Seattle PD is unique in that it has more civilian oversight than most PDs. There is a lot of information that the public never hears about, that never comes out in the media. Please remember that the media's goal is to get you to watch their coverage, buy their paper, etc. in other words, to get and keep your attention; never mind that many times the reporting is inaccurate to say the least, or incomplete, misleading, etc. I would recommend anyone who is interested to get involved in a program such as this if there is one available in your area. I think that seeing things from a different perspective and walking in someone else's shoes can be an enlightening experience.