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Thread: Skill Set: Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
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    Skill Set: Open Carry

    Here we go again...

    http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/223321

    Lately I've been getting a lot of questions from students about open carry. "What do you think about open carry?" they ask. Judging by the looks on their faces from my response I don't think my answer is what they want to hear.

    First, I don't really want anyone to know I'm armed, and this applies for both the bad guys and "friendlies" in the area. Sure, there is always the argument that if a bad guy sees my weapon that they will go somewhere else, and that may happen. It would be something difficult to document. But there is also the chance that by being armed I become the threat's first target.

    I also don't want non-threats to know I'm armed. If something does break out these other people may expect me to save the day. When I use my weapon it's because I decide based on the situation that's it is necessary for me to use it. Others, especially those unfamiliar with conflict, may not be very objective when it comes to use of firearms. For example they may be counting on you using your weapon to keep the guy they've been mouthing off to from kicking their butt. They may think it's worth risking your life to prevent a business from losing their money during a robbery. I only fight if it's worth risking my life for, which is a very short list.

    It may not be a good idea to attract the law's attention either, especially in areas where you can carry openly but not many people do. You never know when someone who is ignorant of the law freaks about a weapon being displayed. Open carry could also be used against you as a tool for harassment. You blow the horn at someone in the parking lot who is about to pull out in front of you. They see you exit your car, carrying a pistol, then dial 911 to complain about the guy driving around in a silver pickup pointing a weapon and loudly cursing folks.

    Another factor to consider is home security, as in not attracting any attention or providing bad guys a reason to break into your home. When a bad guy sees you wearing a weapon, they can be pretty sure you've got more at home. It's a simple matter to follow you, check your schedule, and then acquire some new hardware. Regardless of how you carry, all unattended weapons should be well secured.

    The element of surprise is a valuable tactic, and your capabilities and intentions should be hidden as long as possible. I don't want anyone knowing I'm armed until the weapon is in my hand and ready for use. Then I can issue verbal commands, which the threat may respond to, I buy myself the time needed to escape the situation or at least get to cover, and if necessary use accurate shots to stop the attacker. Remember, a sudden and violent counter attack often secures victory.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    The difference between OC and CC is the same as between uniformed LEOs and plain-clothes officers. The presence of the former deters crime. The presence of the latter allows for retribution afterward.

    I'd rather the crime not happen in the first place.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The difference between OC and CC is the same as between uniformed LEOs and plain-clothes officers. The presence of the former deters crime. The presence of the latter allows for retribution afterward.

    I'd rather the crime not happen in the first place.
    +1. I'll also add that, as has been stated on this forum several times, the element of surprise is an OFFENSIVE tactic.

    Also, why is this a new thread? There are plenty of old CC vs. OC threads, why not just post this there?

    Edit: Didn't realize your post was a copy/paste of the link. You may want to make that more clear to avoid copyright infringement issues/people thinking that you wrote this as a review.
    Last edited by sultan62; 09-07-2010 at 11:27 AM.

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    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Edit: Didn't realize your post was a copy/paste of the link. You may want to make that more clear to avoid copyright infringement issues/people thinking that you wrote this as a review.
    Make it more clear? The link to the article is the second line of the post in a different color font. How much more clear does it need to be?

    Perhaps you should just pay better attention.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hp-hobo View Post
    Make it more clear? The link to the article is the second line of the post in a different color font. How much more clear does it need to be?

    Perhaps you should just pay better attention.
    I recommend putting the text of articles in quote boxes.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hp-hobo View Post
    Make it more clear? The link to the article is the second line of the post in a different color font. How much more clear does it need to be?

    Perhaps you should just pay better attention.
    Perhaps you could be polite, and actually read and consider my comment. Blue, underlined text usually means a link. I get that.

    However, you did not clearly show that the text under the link was the article and not your own comments. You could, as eye95 suggested, put it in box quotes. Or, you could say "Here is the article copied over." There are several ways to do this.

    Also, considering you didn't attribute the article by copying over the byline or the text containing the author's name at the end of the article, the reasonable assumption would be that they are YOUR comments.

    But please, feel free to plagiarize. It's not like any gun rights forums have been subject to legal scrutiny as of late due to this very thing...

    ...oh, wait. Never mind, they have.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Perhaps you could be polite, and actually read and consider my comment. Blue, underlined text usually means a link. I get that.

    However, you did not clearly show that the text under the link was the article and not your own comments. You could, as eye95 suggested, put it in box quotes. Or, you could say "Here is the article copied over." There are several ways to do this.

    Also, considering you didn't attribute the article by copying over the byline or the text containing the author's name at the end of the article, the reasonable assumption would be that they are YOUR comments.

    But please, feel free to plagiarize. It's not like any gun rights forums have been subject to legal scrutiny as of late due to this very thing...

    ...oh, wait. Never mind, they have.
    +1
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    Regular Member Snakemathis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    Perhaps you could be polite, and actually read and consider my comment. Blue, underlined text usually means a link. I get that.

    However, you did not clearly show that the text under the link was the article and not your own comments. You could, as eye95 suggested, put it in box quotes. Or, you could say "Here is the article copied over." There are several ways to do this.

    Also, considering you didn't attribute the article by copying over the byline or the text containing the author's name at the end of the article, the reasonable assumption would be that they are YOUR comments.

    But please, feel free to plagiarize. It's not like any gun rights forums have been subject to legal scrutiny as of late due to this very thing...

    ...oh, wait. Never mind, they have.
    +2 I lol'd.
    "Know firearms, know safety. No firearms, no safety"
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    "Tiger McKee is director of Shootrite Firearms Academy, located in northern Alabama, author of The Book of Two Guns, a staff member of several firearms/tactical publications, and an adjunct instructor for the F.B.I."

    Never heard of "Shootrite Firearms Academy," never heard of "Tiger" McKee, never heard of "The Book of Two Guns," and an "adjunct instructor for the FBI" is the guy who goes around in class handing out pencils.

    I agree with his points -- but he neglects to mention that CC isn't an option for everyone, everywhere.

    Myself, I want to be able to JUST PLAIN CARRY. OC, CCW, whatever is the most convenient at the time.

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    Regular Member J.D.Allen's Avatar
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    If you follow this logic, then perhaps all LEO's should be CC'ing in plain clothes, and driving unmarked vehicles. It would be better if no one knew they were there to prevent crime...

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    Boring... Yawn....

    This article is reciting the same old arguments that have been said a hundred times over by CC instructors who don't want the pay check affected by people exercising freedoms...

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D.Allen View Post
    If you follow this logic, then perhaps all LEO's should be CC'ing in plain clothes, and driving unmarked vehicles. It would be better if no one knew they were there to prevent crime...
    Since they seem to be committing more crimes than preventing them these days, maybe they should!

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Mann View Post
    Since they seem to be committing more crimes than preventing them these days, maybe they should!
    Do you have statistics to back that assertion up?

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The difference between OC and CC is the same as between uniformed LEOs and plain-clothes officers. The presence of the former deters crime. The presence of the latter allows for retribution afterward.

    I'd rather the crime not happen in the first place.
    + another.

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    This criticism and bickering in this thread reminds me why I do not post here much. People get a long much better elsewhere.

    before someone says "then go elsewhere" I like some things about this forum and love open carry and it's nice to talk to other OCers, but it could be a little more friendly.

    By the way, I totally agree with eye95's example of uniformed vs nonuniformed police.

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    Funny!!!

    I always laugh when people talk about OC Vs CC... because the ones who think CC is "better and or safer, and more socially acceptable", obviously don't truly understand the dynamic of the situation and i am sure have never open carried!

    the reason i say these people don't understand the dynamic of a fight is because:


    Look at what the military does and teaches... IF YOU LOOK LIKE A HARD TARGET... THEN NO ONE WANTS TO FIGHT YOU! By OC'ing instead of CC'ing... you look like a hard target to any potential bad guy... the rest of the world has nothing to worry about because they are doing nothing wrong to you! and they don't worry about it! think about it... if you were going to mug someone ... would you choose the guy that is 6'6" and 250 lbs of pure muscle ... probably not... you would choose another target... same goes with having a gun on your belt... that guy is going to leave you alone and probably will leave the area because you are a threat to him now... you just changed the dynamic in your favor! Now the BG fears getting shot and or you holding him and calling the cops, then he is dead or in jail... so he thinks that move through!

    I would like to say that i have been open carrying for about 3 months now and have nothing but positive experiences with people and LEO's, the only comments that i get are " are you a cop" and i explain that i am not , than they proceed to ask if i just need a concealed weapons permit, and i tell them that as long as the weapon is registered to you, that no permit is required. and they leave from the experience more educated about my states laws. I have been spotted 3 times by LEO's while OCing, I know they saw me because my strong side was facing them and the did do a little of a double take... NOT ONE OF THE LEO's THAT HAVE SEEN ME OC HAVE EVEN SAID A WORD TO ME!!!!! And i been within 15 feet of every one!!! they know that its legal and they leave me alone!
    The rest of the world doesn't even notice... they just go about their business, and i think the ones who notice but don't comment to me just think that i'm an LEO.

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    I'm going to gracefully agree with the article, while simultaneously agreeing with pool_marine.

    pool_marine, I'd like to illustrate something straight out of the terrorism data if you don't mind.

    Hard targets tend to be more aware and are tougher to get to, let alone attack. Soft targets are simply sheep without a sheepdog to protect them, easy game as this truly is a hunt of sorts.

    Keep that in mind for this part. Hard targets pose a specific challenge for acts of violence. Present enough of a challenge and you can actually become a much more enticing target to said BG....the thrill of the challenge so to speak.

    These are examples of why situational and spacial awareness are so vital. If you present a routine, you're by far not a hard target. If you fail to notice changes in that routine that are not of your doing, you're going to be a victim, it's just a matter of when. Routines and patterns are the friend of BG's and they will use them to their advantage.

    A training video that was used for OPSEC and situational awareness (ie the hard target or lion target) was the soldier on his way home the same way every day at the same time of day. He comes across a stalled vehicle in the roadway with its hood up and offers to help. He is then captured by a male and female. The video then rewinds and shows the warning signs that had been present for several days prior to the incident. 1st mistake was setting a pattern, 2nd mistake was not noticing the changes in that pattern environment that were unusual and not of his doing.

    Even those of us who like to think we are spacially aware will miss subtle things, so don't think for a second that anyone is perfect with this issue.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-25-2010 at 01:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hp-hobo View Post
    Make it more clear? The link to the article is the second line of the post in a different color font. How much more clear does it need to be?

    Perhaps you should just pay better attention.
    Just for the record, I read the whole thing and did not realize it was not the OPers creation until I got into the succeeding posts. I don't know that I read each and every post with the same care and attention I do a statute or court opinion.

    I think that when we read we are looking for the known symbols and formatting that we have learned to recognize as telling us certain things. I'm not looking at text and saying to myself, "OK no quotation marks so this isn't a quote." But, when I see a quotation mark, then I recognize it and know that the next material is a quote.

    Also, a little statement to the effect that the coming material is a quote helps. For example, "Here is what a poster at (web address) has to say about OC:"

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    Personally, I've never quite understood all the arguing over OC versus CC. Each carrier can figure out what aspects are most important to him.

    The way I see it, if tactical advantage is the main concern of any given CCer, fine with me. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

    About eight-tenths of the reason I OC is for educating people about their self-defense rights. People ask me about it; I get to tell them things they didn't know. Every single day of mild and warm weather, I take a shot at educating people about their self-defense rights, and even plenty of chilly days.

    Maybe one-tenth is comfort during weather too warm for a cover garment.

    And, maybe one-tenth is just convenience--I don't have to figure out which clothes to wear how in order to conceal.

    Whichever tenth is left is attitude. "Yeah, its my right, so I'm going to do it. A right unexercised is a right lost." Compounded by poor math skills, of course.

    I've weighed the benefits and liabilities. I concluded OC is the way to go.

  20. #20
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    Marine_pool, Citizen, my two cents worth are simply that you both nailed various aspects of the issue.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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