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Thread: Interesting idea: Kalifornia-style CCW workaround?

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Arrow Interesting idea: Kalifornia-style CCW workaround?

    So I read recently about the OC Ban in Kalifornia failing, and a comment about carrying the gun (unloaded) and a loaded magazine in separate pockets got me thinking...

    Is there anything illegal about concealed-carrying an unloaded handgun?

    And, if not, is there anything illegal about concealed-carrying an unloaded handgun, with a loaded magazine in a separate pocket?

    Interesting...

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    Regular Member PikesPeakMtnMan's Avatar
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    While I think carrying an unloaded handgun is totally pointless, I'm sure that carrying a concealed gun (loaded or unloaded) is illegal (unless it is legal, ie. with a permit, in a vehicle, etc, etc). I don't have a cite but I cannot ever recall reading or even hearing about it being legal. To my knowledge, a concealed gun is a concealed gun, loaded or not...and illegal without a permit.

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    As mailing/shipping firearm components is legal, without a CHP- you may be onto something. If you can carry your side from your frame- separate. Say you carry your frame and slide, not together- in one pocket and your loaded magazine in another pocket. Now in the event you need your firearm you would need to quickly assemble the top to the bottom. This is much easier on some handguns than others and much faster on some as well.

    You will have to look to the definition of a handgun to decide whether or not this is a legal work around. Of course- you don't need a permit to conceal carry your pistol barrel around- or the slide- or just the frame- or just the magazine- etc.

    Good luck looking into it.

    I would say that if the pistol is NOT capable of firing a projectile because it is- Not a pistol at this point- then your disassembled pistol presents no legal barriers to being concealed.
    Last edited by cscitney87; 09-08-2010 at 11:57 AM.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    The lower portion of a pistol is the regulated (ATF) piece. I don't know why you would want to carry a disassembled handgun, frankly, but think (don't know) CCing the lower would violate the law. Probably wouldn't be prosecuted for it in CO, but never know about the PDR of Denver. Carrying an assembled, concealed pistol, loaded or unloaded without a CCW would violate the law. Nothing in the statutes references a loaded handgun being the only state that you need a CCW for. Interesting question, but why bother?

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    I am having trouble following, Gunslinger. You'll have to go into more detail- Why, exactly, is a lower portion of a pistol not allowed to be concealed without a CHP? How can these parts possibly be shipped/mailed across country without a CHP?

    For example- if I took the top slide off of my pistol and has just the frame/trigger/hammer assembly.... You are telling me that, although this lower cannot fire a projectile, I still would not be able to conceal it without a Concealed Handgun Permit?

    I would want to raise the BS flag on that one unless you can provide details. The frame of a pistol- NOT CAPABLE of firing a projectile (definition of pistol)- would most certainly be able to travel freely amongst our state and the several states. This is how business is done, Gunslinger. People ship lowers and uppers and barrels and trigger assemblies all of the time all across the world. Unless a piece of anything is capable of firing a projectile- it would not be considered a handgun/pistol and therefor not subject to the requirements of a CHP.

    By the way- let's call it CHP. I'm getting pretty sick and tired of CCW. That's a concealed weapon which is not affiliated with the laws concerning concealed handguns.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    You can't buy an AR-15 lower without going thru ATF regulations and a background check, ship to FFL, etc. The same applies to a lower containing the fire control system on a semi-automatic pistol. The fire control system on most rifles, shotgun or pistols is what has the serial number (although it may be duplicated on the slide, but that isn't required) and is considered the regulated part of the weapon. These cannot be shipped to you but must go to an FFL unless you sent to the manufacturer for repair. Then they can be returned to you. Look at any of the online sellers for say an M-4 lower with firecontrol. You'll see they note FFL regulations apply. As I said, I don't know about carrying the lower on a 1911 in CO. Just a guess and based upon the letter of the BATF regulations. And I can tell you with 100% experience the frame of my Hi-Power in MA was what I needed a MA permit to have. They couldn't care less about slides or barrels, but if you had (only) the frame with fc intact, you needed a permit.

    As an example: the frame and fire control on a SIG 250 is what requires FFL shipment, not the slide/barrels to change it out. As I said, look at Brownells, Midway, etc and you'll see the requirements.

    CCW means "carry of concealed weapon" to me, so is not incorrect but somewhat archaic. But that's what they called my first one back in NH in 1983, so it kind of sticks. CCP is probably the most correct.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 09-08-2010 at 02:26 PM.

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    never said an ffl would not be needed..... simply said they are shipped all across the country everyday. When you ship your disassembled pistol for repairs, through Fed Ex, do you need a CHP? No. A disassembled pistol is not a pistol. Therefor carrying one in a case, box, envelope, holster, or pocket does not require the possession of a CHP.

    When your pistol is sent for repairs; Call the manufacturer and arrange for shipment. Box up your pistol. Take the boxed pistol to FedEx/UPS/whatever and the thing gets shipped. You have concealed your pistol completely, disassembled, and thus requiring no CHP. The law does not require a disassembled pistol be boxed or cased to travel- thus one may travel with the disassembled pistol in their pocket- no doubt- without a CHP. More specifically- if the "insert anything" is capable of firing a projectile- it is considered a handgun/pistol by definition. The pieces to put that "insert anything" together are not capable of firing a projectile.

    Do Colorado CHP laws apply to carrying the disassembled portions of a handgun to the destination. I am saying they most likely do not apply.


    The OP is asking if the magazine can be separate to obtain "disassembled" status- no not at all. Pistols can be capable of firing the chambered bullet without a magazine engaged. If you were willing to take the slide from the frame and quickly slide it back on in the event of danger.. maybe you could do that. But simply unloading the magazine- no you will definitely still need a CHP for that. I don't think "Kalifornia-style" works here in Colorado.
    Last edited by cscitney87; 09-08-2010 at 03:03 PM.

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    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
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    Now that I think of it, it's more like 'New Mexico' style. There, you can CC with the loaded magazine separated from the (assembled) pistol without a permit, but you have to abide by the OC rules (which are stricter than here in Co).

    But the CC laws definitely define CC'ing as with a gun, unloaded or not?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    "Workaround" = "Loophole" = "Bad Idea!"

    Quote Originally Posted by cscitney87 View Post
    But simply unloading the magazine- no you will definitely still need a CHP for that. I don't think "Kalifornia-style" works here in Colorado.
    I concur, cscitney87. Simply dropping a mag and storing it elsewhere on your person does not render the weapon as a non-weapon if one retains the mag on one's person, even if "widely separated."

    Put simply, here in Colorado you have two choices for carrying a firearm on your person: Open Carry or CC with a CHP.

    This is substantiated in the CRS excerpts cited on the RMGO FAQ page.

    If you examine 18-12-105 at Michie's Legal Resources, you'll observe none of the defenses in section (2) allow for this.

    While perusing the laws, I came across two ways where, according to the letter of the law, one can, apparently, get around the CC permit requirements.

    However, I will not post those methods!

    Here's why: Embodied in the law are two precepts: The letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Prosecutors and judges know the law is imperfect, that it contains "loopholes." Judges especially are both experts in the law and understand that loopholes exist. If they spot a loophole, they will aggressively attempt to close it, by means of "case law." This is where a judge makes a ruling based not on the letter of the law, but on the spirit behind it. In so doing, the judge will cite previous examples of other judges doing much the same until they're ruling is packing a punch that will be difficult, if not all but impossible, to beat on appeal (judges hate being overturned on appeal).

    Furthermore, when they spot people trying to escape the spirit of the law by using loopholes, the fines and sentences are usually maxed out as a warning to others not to try and do the same.

    So, my advice to the OP and others here looking for loopholes: Don't. You'll be in the crosshairs of the legal system.

    Your (our) interests would be far better served by simply writing to our State legislature. Research the applicable laws until you're well-versed in them. State that you would like them to change a CRS and why. Propose a changed version, as well as changes to additional CRS which may be affected by your proposed change.
    Last edited by since9; 09-17-2010 at 01:48 PM.
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    cscitney you are obviously not an attorney or legally trained. You think that laws can be understood by common sense. This is not meant to be any kind of a personal attack so please don't take it that way.

    The BATFE considers the frame of a handgun to be the handgun. Google "1911 frame" and see what the frame is. It does not have to have any other parts in it. You cannot buy it without a FFL or going through one. Any other part can be bought and sold and shipped anywhere without licensing or registration.

    If you stuck a handgun frame in your back pocket and pulled your shirt down over it without a concealed weapon permit you could be charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon. It doesn't matter if it could not be fired. The same regulations are in effect regarding the lower receiver of an AR15 or the serial numbered part of any other gun. Not necessarily every part that has a serial number but the part that is required to have one. Would you be charged? Probably not but you could be.

    By the way, I am an attorney.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    The BATFE considers the frame of a handgun to be the handgun. Google "1911 frame" and see what the frame is. It does not have to have any other parts in it. You cannot buy it without a FFL or going through one. Any other part can be bought and sold and shipped anywhere without licensing or registration.
    The frame? Really? Not the barrel? I'll take your word for it. If it were the barrel, 98% of all households would be subject to arrest by the BATF because of the plumbing in their houses or apartments.

    If you stuck a handgun frame in your back pocket and pulled your shirt down over it without a concealed weapon permit you could be charged with illegally carrying a concealed weapon. It doesn't matter if it could not be fired. The same regulations are in effect regarding the lower receiver of an AR15 or the serial numbered part of any other gun. Not necessarily every part that has a serial number but the part that is required to have one. Would you be charged? Probably not but you could be.
    Interesting!

    By the way, I am an attorney.
    Even more interesting...
    Last edited by since9; 09-22-2010 at 11:25 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    lololol
    Last edited by cscitney87; 09-23-2010 at 01:14 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cscitney87 View Post
    lololol
    Yeah, it is sort of comical. The frame? Really? Perhaps that's why Israeli assassins use slap guns void of any frame whatsoever, and made of parts readily available in any plumbing or hardware store.

    For that matter, I'm going to time myself and see if there's anything I can turn into a deadly weapon (aside from knives) here in my apartment (it's a mess, but please bear with me). I'll give myself sixty seconds, so...

    Go!
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Ok, my time's up, and here's what I came up with:

    1. large and small diameter lampposts

    2. paperclips and push pins

    3. carbon-fiber repair tape (designed for bicycles)

    4. duct tape

    5. mixer paddle

    6. long-shanked screwdriver (about 12")

    7. monopod for camera (another aluminum tube)

    8. tripod (three more aluminum tubes)

    9. hangers, both plastic and metal

    10. several belts

    I'll not put the pieces together, folks (the ABATF probably wouldn't like that, either).

    However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these common household items, or the couple of things readily available at a hardware or bicycle store, can be assembled in short order by anyone of ingenuity into a lethal short-range assasination device.

    Then again, commensurate with local, city, county, state, and federal law, I already own a firearm, which itself is, among many other definitions is a "lethal short-range assassination device." Personally I prefer the term "firearm used for the purpose of self-defence," as that's my purpose for it.

    My point in writing this is to show that it's utterly absurd to think we're going to eradicate the world of weapons. Heck, armed with nothing more than a small butterknife, a whetstone, and some ingenuity, I can fashion a very powerful compound bow, along with arrows to fill a quiver.

    Add a leafspring from any car in the junkyard, a hacksaw, and a file, and I can fashion a compound crossbow capable of shooting an arrow over 500 mph.

    Seriously, folks! Why are we up in arms about this stuff? I'm one of perhaps 20 million people in the U.S. who can do this, if they just gave a few brain cells a couple of seconds. This is nothing new. If it were any sort of serious issue, we'd no longer exist.

    As it is, I and those like me keep our ears to the ground for the next Timothy McVeigh. If we hear gunshots popping off in the middle of the night, we report it. If we overhear a neighbor telling another he's had it up to hear with the gov't and he's devised a way to blow something up, we report it.

    We're all in the same boat. We cherish the right to defend ourselves. Sometimes, however, we must step out of the box, make a judgement call, and report to higher authorities activities which go well above and beyond our right to keep and bear arms.

    Thing's like McVeigh's loading a truck with ammonium nitrate and some oxidizer. Ok, that's way beyond going out to the range to do a little plinking! I wish someone had recognized and reported his activities earlier on. Nichols could have, and should have. If he had, 168 people would still be alive, and hundreds more would not have been maimed or otherwise injured.

    Where am I going with this?

    It's not the materials at hand that the BATF, NSA, CIA, FBI, or LEO should concern themselves with, although excessive purchase of such materials might indeed indicate a building or hotspot issue. It's the individual's psyche that'll tell them which of the 300,000,000 folks with routine and regular access to "stuff" will become the ones whom bear watching.

    Here's the clicker, folks: We're all in this together. But just as we keep an eye out for the BG with a gun on the street, we should also keep an eye out for the ones who are a "little more off" than the rest. I'm not talking about those who rail against our government, as they're a dime a dozen, and the LAST thing we need is to devolve into another Hitlerian tattletale state.

    I'm simply talking about using your common sense. If someone asks you to help them load 500 lbs of ammonium nitrate? Raise an eyebrow. If they're a farmer with routine access to the same and they ask you to help them move a few hundred pounds of a known oxidizer, it's time to make a phone call.

    I have very few doubts that many more people than Nichol's and the Fortiers knew what McVeigh were up to. I also have very few doubts that if any of them had made an earlier phone call, McVeigh could have been stopped cold.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...1----000-.html

    § 921. Definitions


    (a) As used in this chapter—
    (3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
    (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
    (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
    (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
    Geez, I hope we finally got the point across...

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