Another thread linked to the silly Mosque (Muslims Please Read)

Tawnos said:

I just think you're too stupid to be worth wasting any more time on, and I hope I never have the misfortune of running into you here in WA.

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Personal attack. Awesome.

Couldn't respond to my lengthy and well though out reply, so you put a spotlight on your true nature.

Hey let me know when you are competent enough to comprehend the word "Ideological".

Must be nice to reject reality. You must live in Seattle! lol...

This has broken down to "blah blah semantics blah blah nit picking blah blah misdirection blah blah hard headed blah blah pointless blah".

Agree to disagree and move on or agree on terms and definitions, break it down to manageable units and resolve those units one at a time moving on to the next. When it comes to logger-heads, agree to disagree!

Next?

HeroHog said:

This has broken down to "blah blah semantics blah blah nit picking blah blah misdirection blah blah hard headed blah blah pointless blah".

Agree to disagree and move on or agree on terms and definitions, break it down to manageable units and resolve those units one at a time moving on to the next. When it comes to logger-heads, agree to disagree!

Next?

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You're right, but at the same time an assault was launched on some pretty harmless, and obviously legit questions that I posed.

This thread was meant to be friendly, and informative. Instead I get a couple of people who don't understand the term "ideologically speaking", taking offense to a pretty non-offensive question, instead of simply answering it.

I will digress though.

Can a Muslim please answer the questions for the good of the people who are concerned about the Mosque/Community Center, and the future of Islam in this country?

Just a Muslim perspective please.

Wow, you really like to head out to left field, don't you?

simmonsjoe said:

You don't hear it because you don't want to.

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Actually, I would love to hear some outrage from the Muslim community over the random killing of innocent people to forward a political point of view.

The media doesn't talk about stuff that isn't sensational.

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I'm sorry, but I think a leader of a major Muslim body who actually called a press conference and condemned what the terrorists do in the name of his religion, would make international news!

I know many Muslims(obviously). I've met only a few who do NOT condemn terrorist actions. The biggest thing you keep overlooking, is the most common target of terrorist is OTHER MUSLIMS. Why you require VICTIMS to become political activist is beyond me. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS.

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I didn't overlook the fact that most of the victims are Muslim, I'm just wondering where the outcry from the rest of the Muslim community is over those killings.
Is it wrong to ask people to stand up against the people that are doing the killing? At some point the 'victim' has to stand up and say enough is enough, stop!

Most Muslims can't find any common ground with others to discuss terrorist because there is no correlation to what you say terrorists are, and what they actually are. They keep talking about how Islam is peaceful and such, because they need you to understand what Islam actually is. Although terrorists may be Muslim, their actions are not based in Islam.

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Islam is a religion, one that encompasses an entire way of living, just as most religions do.
Terrorists are terrorists, regardless of what religion they espouse.

Islam IS NOT A NAME. It is a STATE OF BEING.

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In this usage, it is actually used as a tag or title to differentiate one person or group of persons from another.

When you call terrorists 'Islamic terrorist' or 'Muslim terrorist' or similar, you are actually saying "submitting to the will of God through terroristism." To those who understand what this means, they can't condemn it. This is because in order for this to be condemned, it has to be accepted as true. When you say "Islamic Terrorist" it shows such a fundamental lack of understanding, that dialogue is almost impossible. This is why many Muslims instead defend and explain Islam, because until you understand what Islam is, your talking on two different levels, and a dialogue about terrorist becomes very difficult.

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Wow, that is a hard paragraph to unravel, I don't think I'll even try.
Islam is a set of religious beliefs that direct a persons actions, am I wrong?
Let me just say that being unable to condemn the actions of a terrorist, regardless of their religious/political background or affiliation, is really sad and unacceptable in a civilized world.

Take myself for instance. I spend more time trying to define and explain what Islam is, and what terrorist really are, and what actually drives them, than anything else. I've rarely gotten the chance to actually discuss terrorism in the Muslim world and how to deal with it.

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Ok, so, how would you deal with terrorism, in the Muslim world or anywhere else?

Another reason we don't discuss it is we have become discouraged. There are many forces that WANT TO INTENTIONALLY mislead Americans about Islam. Our intent when going over to Afghanistan and Iraq was reasonable. It was even justified as far as the Qu'ran was concerned. Terrorist misled people as to America's intentions as a recruitment tool. More and more Americans, however, have been misled about Islam. The end goal is a full scale war, by certain parties on BOTH SIDES.

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I guess since you've become discouraged about trying to explain it to people outside of your religious community, you should start working within to help make whatever changes you deem important to bring about whatever changes are needed to combat terrorism.

All of that being said, I think my comments about question #3 still stand, does anyone have a response?

Flame away...
-MH

You seem to forget I don't participate in flames. You don't like the answers to your own questions it's not my problem.

btw - America is my community.

simmonsjoe said:

You seem to forget I don't participate in flames. You don't like the answers to your own questions it's not my problem.

btw - America is my community.

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It's not that I don't like the answers to my questions, the problem is, I didn't see any.

My questions as posed:
Original post:

Where is the condemnation and outrage for killings such as those?

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Follow up post:

Ok, so how would you deal with terrorism, in the Muslim world or anywhere else?

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Your response had nothing to do with answering either of those questions.

As far as you not participating in flaming, good, it's not polite or productive.

-MH

simmonsjoe said:

You seem to forget I don't participate in flames. You don't like the answers to your own questions it's not my problem.

btw - America is my community.

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You haven't answered jack crap. Just feigned extreme offense to very rational, and substantiated questions.

I am well aware America is your community. I think March Hare has been very kind and forward with his questions and statements. He also made it patently clear that he was referring to your "religious community", which exists in any religion that shares worship services.

You really are deflecting a ton...

I am starting to suspect that advocating even harder for peace, or speaking out against terrorism is not something that Muslim leaders are concerned about.

I mean, who would want to stop the defamation of ones religion in front of someone who is not familiar with Islam?

I think Islam is a peaceful religion, and in fact is the largest religion in the entire world. I think it's getting a bad rap from terrorist activities.

I also think Muslims could spark a movement of global unity if they would simply unite as one against those who defame and defile their beliefs.

Of course, you aren't interested in that. Are you?

Sure. Go and watch the movie 'Rendition.' If you saw it before, go watch it again. This time forget the whole political torture issue and pay attention to the subplot. (The love story about the two teens). Let me know when you're done. Discussing it is a great starting point in understanding how to deal with terrorism.

simmonsjoe said:

Sure. Go and watch the movie 'Rendition.' If you saw it before, go watch it again. This time forget the whole political torture issue and pay attention to the subplot. (The love story about the two teens). Let me know when you're done. Discussing it is a great starting point in understanding how to deal with terrorism.

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I don't see the connection between a Hollywood thriller and the questions that have been raised here.
Perhaps you meant to post this in another forum or thread?

-MH

simmonsjoe, you gave me some advice earlier that I should have followed, and I'll reflect back to you...

They're too ignorant to listen, and are looking only for validation of their own viewpoints. There's no point trying to talk with someone who's buried their head in the sand, stuffed cotton in their ears, and makes numerous logical fallacies without even realizing it. The most egregious of this is the begging the question issue, which I've tried to demonstrate but not been able to get through, likely because a certain member is a bit "slow", if you catch my drift. This member will continue to insist that a statement posed as a question is not begging the question, and he will continue to be wrong. He'll keep calling Sharia law "Sharias law", despite it being incorrect. If he can't get the simple stuff right, how can you expect him to understand nuance and respond with anything other than acrimonious discourse? Quite simply, he's incapable at this time of anything different.

March Hare, you continue in another fallacy yourself, guilt by association. There is no logical reason a group should have to proactively distance themselves from another. There is no reason a group of Muslims should be required to apologize for actions they did not commit. I've mentioned the 1996 olympic bombings before, because I think it illustrates a good point: I don't expect every group of christians to have to apologize for the actions of that group. To do so would be to presume they condone the actions because they aren't willing to "hold a press conference". I think simmonsjoe is right, you haven't sought out an answer...

A quick bing search gives me this: http://www.changethestory.net/?q=content/muslims-denounce-terrorism
I find many other similar stories and sites, but they are definitely out there, even though such denouncement shouldn't even be required.

Tawnos said:

simmonsjoe, you gave me some advice earlier that I should have followed, and I'll reflect back to you...

They're too ignorant to listen, and are looking only for validation of their own viewpoints. There's no point trying to talk with someone who's buried their head in the sand, stuffed cotton in their ears, and makes numerous logical fallacies without even realizing it.

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All I did was ask a question, no need to be insulting.

March Hare, you continue in another fallacy yourself, guilt by association. There is no logical reason a group should have to proactively distance themselves from another. There is no reason a group of Muslims should be required to apologize for actions they did not commit. I've mentioned the 1996 olympic bombings before, because I think it illustrates a good point: I don't expect every group of christians to have to apologize for the actions of that group. To do so would be to presume they condone the actions because they aren't willing to "hold a press conference". I think simmonsjoe is right, you haven't sought out an answer...

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I think you are reading too much into the words I've posted, I neither assigned or inferred guilt, I merely asked a question.
I can see that neither of you wish to discuss the questions posted, rather, you wish to pick apart the way in which they were posted and infer a lack of intelligence on the part of the posters.

This was an opportunity to have an interesting dialog on the questions posted, however, you've chosen to waste it with your arguing over semantics.
This forum is read by people around the world, what better place to have a discussion like this one could have been.

For what it's worth, I really was interested in the answers and discussion that might have been posted.

How sad to waste such an opportunity.

-MH

A quick bing search gives me this: http://www.changethestory.net/?q=content/muslims-denounce-terrorism
I find many other similar stories and sites, but they are definitely out there, even though such denouncement shouldn't even be required.

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Not required to denounce hate filled, violent crimes? Really? Wow.

p.s. Interesting reading, but you still never addressed the questions that were asked.

March Hare said:

All I did was ask a question, no need to be insulting.

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Please see earlier comment about JAQing off...

I think you are reading too much into the words I've posted, I neither assigned or inferred guilt, I merely asked a question.

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JAQing off everywhere
Seriously, though, you did say this:
"Where is the condemnation and outrage for killings such as those?"
and this
"I think a leader of a major Muslim body who actually called a press conference and condemned what the terrorists do in the name of his religion, would make international news!"
and this
"Let me just say that being unable to condemn the actions of a terrorist, regardless of their religious/political background or affiliation, is really sad and unacceptable in a civilized world."

Sure seems like you're assigning guilt to those who aren't even related to the terrorists. You are asking, nay, requiring they apologize for actions they did not commit!

I can see that neither of you wish to discuss the questions posted, rather, you wish to pick apart the way in which they were posted and infer a lack of intelligence on the part of the posters.

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I only picked apart two questions for being "leading and somewhat offensive." The rest I said were fine, but apparently that's not good enough. If you beg the question or imply guilt by association, I will call you on it. If you (generic you) can't see the fallacy, they I don't need to infer a lack of intelligence, you all can do it for me.

This was an opportunity to have an interesting dialog on the questions posted, however, you've chosen to waste it with your arguing over semantics.

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Logical fallacies are not mere semantics. If I ask you a question that presupposes a fact, one that is no more than an opinion (even if shared among many people), and answering that question validates that fact, it is "begging the question." If I ask you why you don't publicly distance yourself from a group that an ignorant person may associate with you, even though you have no desire or reason to associate with them, it's me committing "guilt by association". These shade the path of discourse before it even begins. It is up to you, the claimant, to show evidence of a connection, rather than to presume such a relationship and demand an apology for acts committed by an unrelated third party.

I mean, FFS, what do you want, a BJ and a letter of apology from any group that you might think is associated with terrorists, even if that group has nothing to do with them?

JAQing off everywhere

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Again, an insult. Nice.

Seriously, though, you did say this:
"Where is the condemnation and outrage for killings such as those?"
and this
"I think a leader of a major Muslim body who actually called a press conference and condemned what the terrorists do in the name of his religion, would make international news!"
and this
"Let me just say that being unable to condemn the actions of a terrorist, regardless of their religious/political background or affiliation, is really sad and unacceptable in a civilized world."

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If you insist on quoting me, please do so in context.
I think that if you read the posts those were taken from, you would be hard pressed to disagree with what I had written.

Sure seems like you're assigning guilt to those who aren't even related to the terrorists. You are asking, nay, requiring they apologize for actions they did not commit!

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I've not asked let alone required anyone apologize for anything, just wondered why there isn't more of an outcry from the Muslim world against the violence being committed by Muslims, against Muslims.

I mean, FFS, what do you want, a BJ and a letter of apology from any group that you might think is associated with terrorists, even if that group has nothing to do with them?

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It is apparent to me that there is no chance of civil discussion of either the letter or spirit of the questions I have posted here.

Congratulations, you win. My views, which by the way you had an opportunity influence, will have to remain unchanged.
The really sad part is, you don't even know what my views are, you're already passed judgment.

-MH

Tawnos said:

I only picked apart two questions for being "leading and somewhat offensive." The rest I said were fine, but apparently that's not good enough. If you beg the question or imply guilt by association, I will call you on it. If you (generic you) can't see the fallacy, they I don't need to infer a lack of intelligence, you all can do it for me.

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Your thought process is massively flawed.

The question clearly infers there is an ideological belief associated with the structure.

If you weren't so absolutely full of yourself to the point you stink, you would understand the inference.

The question doesn't at all presuppose guilt by association, but merely alludes to the true-to-life fact that there is a common belief structure building that Islam is associated with terror.

I am laughing so hard at your failures right now.

March Hare has been far more of a gentleman than even I have (Which I admit freely has dissipated the more I have processed your drivel), and yet you stoop to character denigration and insults.

Maybe we're smart enough to realize the social structure developing that in fact believes that Islam is a symbol of terror.

Maybe we're smart enough to realize that this error in judgment needs to be addressed to be corrected.


That's ok pal, you go ahead and hide behind the shameful feigning of offense while we try to get a Muslim to simply speak out against terrorism on national level, and address the true questions plaguing the minds of many Americans.

I mean christ dude, you aren't even bright enough to realize the parallels to the purposes for which OCDO actively advocates peaceful carry of firearms.

BECAUSE THERE IS A NEGATIVE BELIEF STRUCTURE IN PLACE THAT NEEDS TO BE ACTIVELY TORN DOWN.

Feigning "offense" to the idea that it exists, or pretending that it does not, is really illuminating as to what sort of false reality you really live in.

This will probably be my last post to you, because I honestly feel you lack the menial processing skills required to dissect the sentence compositions properly. I also realize you are pompous and disrespectful to those who opinions you oppose.

For the record, I think those who practice Islam get a bad rap from bad people, doing things that are likely not linked to the fundamental beliefs of the religion.

But gee, every time I ask a Muslim on here to comment on it, I get your pompous arrogance, and fake offense thrown back at me.

This could have been so much better, and was made with the best intent.

Too bad your comprehension skills are so bad that you can't recognize your glaring mistake.

March Hare said:

Again, an insult. Nice.

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"JAQing off" is not an insult, it's a description of the behavior where a participant in a discourse spouts accusations while cowardly hiding behind "hey, I'm just asking questions". Again, in case you missed the link: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off

slowfiveoh said:

*snip*

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You type like you're out of breath. Have you tried using paragraphs? They're constructs formed by combining multiple sentences into coherent thoughts, rather than pressing enter twice after every period.

Seriously, though, have you missed everything thus far? I presume you have, because you still type as if what your "purpose" was matters. Begging the question is part of the problem you claim you want to address. Yes, people beg the question all the time when it comes to open carry, and that's why I try to drive out that illogical drivel in any place it's found. Regardless of what you think the perceived social norm is, your question about representing extremism contains a statement of fact that is unsubstantiated and not supportable. The difference is one between "this is" and "this is perceived as", nuanced, yet utterly important.

Consider: "Since x represents y, do you think it's okay to x?" Well, what if the person being asked disagrees that x represents y? You've presumed it to be true in the wording of the question, and if they answer "I think it's fine to x" or "I don't think x is okay", they have to accept your proposition of "x represents y." If they argue that the question is poorly worded, and that they don't think "x represents y", they get the same bullshiat you've spewed in this about "can't you answer a simple question." The fact is, you didn't ask a simple question, but one loaded with your own prejudice, idiocy, and short-sighted apathy towards intelligent thought. If you want to ask a question about whether building park 51 represents extremism, ask that, but don't say it does and expect people to not call you on it.

Tawnos said:

If you want to ask a question about whether building park 51 represents extremism, ask that, but don't say it does and expect people to not call you on it.

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The rest of your post is nothing but verbal diarrhea. Therefore I will respond to that which has bearing on this "conversation".

Junior size.

PSssst, you!

Yeah Tawnos.

There is nothing in the question that states Terrorism and Islam are one. I stated quite clearly that there was an "ideology" (If you even know what that means) that exists IN WHICH the perception is the Mosque/Community Center represents symbolically in the minds of many a link between terrorist victory and the Islamic way of life.

If you are going to deny this, then welp. I guess I will just post the question until you finally get, every time you post.

This is literally the worse comprehension fail I have witnessed on this forum.

Even breaking it down to 3rd grade level does nothing to improve your comprehension skills.

So keep attacking my posts while you jack up your own structurally, and grammatically.