Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Disclosure and/or giving ID

  1. #1
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Disclosure and/or giving ID

    I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

    I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

    My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

    In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

    This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  2. #2
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,445

    Arrow

    Yes, it's been covered here before.

    Generally most here believe that you would not legally need to disclose but it's not black and white IMHO (or at least not black and white enough for me)therefore I would disclose in that situation.

    Remember, in that situation, there is much to lose and little to gain by not disclosing then doing so IMHO.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440
    I will disclose when the contacting officer is polite and professional. I have been asked for ID 4 times, I've given it once. The only time I didn't give ID when the officer was polite was during my first encounter with my local PD. I wanted to test my local PD to see where they stood on OC(not bad at that point, perfect now). That being said, I would use my criteria in a PFZ also. Though I much more inclined to produce ID if in a PFZ. If I have a jackbooted thug in front of me demanding ID, I will not produce it, I don't care where I'm at. To each their own, though.
    Last edited by scot623; 09-08-2010 at 07:27 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    I challenge you to find an mcl that requires you to disclose while open carrying, or to produce id or cpl, or even requires you to have id/cpl in your possession.

    however, as dr todd pointed out using case law (albeit from a federal case in another state) an officer may be correct in detaining you and it would then be your responsibility to prove that you have an exemption which allows you to possess a firearm on those premises.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-08-2010 at 07:37 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

    I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

    My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

    In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

    This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.
    If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    Yes, it's been covered here before.

    Generally most here believe that you would not legally need to disclose but it's not black and white IMHO (or at least not black and white enough for me)therefore I would disclose in that situation.

    Remember, in that situation, there is much to lose and little to gain by not disclosing then doing so IMHO.
    This for me also.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  7. #7
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.
    i agree here, its all about RAS, if the cop wants ID just cause you have a gun, WRONG!
    if he says PFZ and CPL required, then he has some legit authority to check.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  8. #8
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101
    Sounds good. I figured it wasn't so black and white either, thus the post. I guess I'll just handle it when it comes.

    Made me wonder cause I was in CVS today and though I don't think anyone noticed I was even carrying, it still made me think 'hmm..'
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  9. #9
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Semi-related: If you are OC'ing on a bicycle and are approached by an officer in a cop car, do you disclose you have a CPL? I did, as I didnt feel like being case law.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    I have yet to find an mcl that requires disclosure of cpl while oc'ing....period! even on motorcycle or bicycle.

    it is ok to disclose at anytime, but it is only required if you are carrying a concealed pistol.


    not carrying a pistol = no duty to disclose
    not concealing a pistol = no duty to disclose
    open carrying = no duty to disclose
    open carrying in pfz = no duty to disclose


    carrying a concealed pistol = duty to disclose

    mcl: 28.425o
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-08-2010 at 10:29 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    On a bike, I would say no, you do not have to disclose. The officer needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you have committed a crime to detain you.
    Does riding a bike mean that you probably have committed a crime? I say that it does not. Just like an officer cannot just pull you over in a car to see if you have a drivers license, he/she cannot stop and ask for ID because you were on a bike.

    In this country, the default position is supposed to be to assume innocence until guilt is proven. Therefore, if you are seen not doing anything wrong, it is the governments responsibility to leave you alone.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    City
    Posts
    1,077
    Yes in that case I would, you would be skating on very think ice with your CPL in my humble opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

    I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

    My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

    In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

    This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    City
    Posts
    1,077
    Even though no officer has ever stopped me while OC I also would gauge his attitude somewhat to gauge mine, ot allow him/her to set the rules of engagement. I am normally as sweet as pie, but when someone tries to pee in my corn flakes look out.

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    I will disclose when the contacting officer is polite and professional. I have been asked for ID 4 times, I've given it once. The only time I didn't give ID when the officer was polite was during my first encounter with my local PD. I wanted to test my local PD to see where they stood on OC(not bad at that point, perfect now). That being said, I would use my criteria in a PFZ also. Though I much more inclined to produce ID if in a PFZ. If I have a jackbooted thug in front of me demanding ID, I will not produce it, I don't care where I'm at. To each their own, though.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    i agree here, its all about RAS, if the cop wants ID just cause you have a gun, WRONG!
    if he says PFZ and CPL required, then he has some legit authority to check.
    We've heard officers say that OC in a CEZ is RAS because a CPL is required.

    Problem with that excuse is, "We've also know that they know that criminals rarely (if ever) use holsters, or OC." We also know that criminals, and felons are unlikely to OC. At this point in the "movement", It would be a rarity for someone to OC and not know that they need a CPL to do so in a CEZ. Hope the lawyer who ever goes after this one keeps that in mind. They can/will use any excuse they can think of for RAS (remember the restaurant where the police stated the reason for detaining was that, "OC is suspicious"?). All they are doing is spreading propaganda to extend their power base. Kind of like that "...tell a lie enough times..."

  15. #15
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830
    MCL 28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.


    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    On a bike, I would say no, you do not have to disclose. The officer needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you have committed a crime to detain you. .
    I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.

    The time to address an illegal stop is after it happens, and maybe during the stop if you call 911 and ask for the MSP, ormaybe call your lawyer. But it is DEFINITELY a good idea to hand over ID when stopped and CCing OR riding in a car or on a bike with a handgun anything but encased and unloaded in your trunk. They'll figure it out anyway if they run your plates or take your gun.

    For the record, I have not and will not ever disclose for OCing in a CEZ, because like Lapeer I can't find any reason to.
    Last edited by Michigander; 09-09-2010 at 09:58 AM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337
    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.
    This is what I would do also.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845
    What DrTodd and Venator said!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    MCL 28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.




    I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.

    The time to address an illegal stop is after it happens, and maybe during the stop if you call 911 and ask for the MSP, ormaybe call your lawyer. But it is DEFINITELY a good idea to hand over ID when stopped and CCing OR riding in a car or on a bike with a handgun anything but encased and unloaded in your trunk. They'll figure it out anyway if they run your plates or take your gun.

    For the record, I have not and will not ever disclose for OCing in a CEZ, because like Lapeer I can't find any reason to.
    What do you disclose when OCing? The disclosure portion was put in place to inform officers that you were armed when they couldn't tell by looking at you if you were or not (generally in a vehicle.). OCing removes all doubt. So my thinking is if you are OCing you do not have to disclose you are carrying concealed (you do if you have a concealed BUG).
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.
    ???

    I am a little slow sometimes, so help me understand......how does 28.425f apply to open carry on a bicycle or motorcycle? (or any open carry for that matter?)

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    when i read that, it clearly indicates that you only have duty to disclose when you are in fact carrying a concealed pistol. I still maintain that if open carrying, you have no duty to disclose.

    I do believe that you get more flies with honey, and it is perfectly ok to disclose and produce cpl during an oc encounter, but legally it appears very black and white that you are only required to disclose when actually carrying concealed, or having a concealed pistol in your vehicle. ie: pistol in your glovebox, under the seat, even worn owb oc in the car because the pistol is hidden between you and the center consol, (the way i read it, even unloaded pistol in a case in the trunk would require disclosure with cpl)

    open carry on a bike is open carry.

    am i misreading the mcl? I have been known to miss some very obvious things from time to time.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mason, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,954
    Well, you can probably get away with OCing on a bicycle and not disclosing, however, the requirement to have a CPL if carrying in a vehicle, doesn't say automobile, it says "motor vehicle" of which a motorcycle would be classified as a motor vehicle.

    And even though it is visible, you'll have to decide whether or not you want to be the next test case.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445
    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    ???

    I am a little slow sometimes, so help me understand......how does 28.425f apply to open carry on a bicycle or motorcycle? (or any open carry for that matter?)



    when i read that, it clearly indicates that you only have duty to disclose when you are in fact carrying a concealed pistol. I still maintain that if open carrying, you have no duty to disclose.

    I do believe that you get more flies with honey, and it is perfectly ok to disclose and produce cpl during an oc encounter, but legally it appears very black and white that you are only required to disclose when actually carrying concealed, or having a concealed pistol in your vehicle. ie: pistol in your glovebox, under the seat, even worn owb oc in the car because the pistol is hidden between you and the center consol, (the way i read it, even unloaded pistol in a case in the trunk would require disclosure with cpl)

    open carry on a bike is open carry.

    am i misreading the mcl? I have been known to miss some very obvious things from time to time.
    Two different things come into play and may be adding to the confusion. First the discloser part of the statute is clear, IF carrying concealed and are lawfully stopped by a LEO you must tell them you have a concealed handgun (only if you have a CPL, criminals are not obligated to inform.).

    The second issue is, do you need to have a CPL to transport a loaded handgun while on a bicycle. Here is where some gray clouds are forming. The statute does not define what a vehicle is, so the courts use the dictionary for help. Some people argue that a bicycle IS a vehicle under a broad definition. Other say the intent is motorized vehicles. SO in this case a LEO could say you have to have a CPL when you are on a bike whether OCing or CCing. But regardless of this area of the law, you would not have to disclose you are carrying a concealed weapon when you are just OCing.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    i agree that a bicycle is a vehicle. The gray area that needs to be defined either by a new statute, or by the courts is whether an openly carried pistol is "in the vehicle"

    I think most everyone agrees that non cpl oc on a motorcycle or even a bicycle should not be attempted because although probably legal, the penalty if found guilty of violating *edited...the correct mcl is 750.227* is a felony.

    I think you are correct that this issue is adding to the confusion of the original question about disclosure. Disclosure seems to be black and white. no concealed pistol = no duty to disclose.

    I would also like to add that i was stopped while oc'iing on my motorcycle and did not disclose that i was carrying (obviously he knew i had a gun, since he told me that's the reason he stopped me) and i did not immediately disclose that i had a cpl. This turned out to be a non-issue. The officer was quite certain that i was breaking the law because i had a pistol on a motorcycle, and i had a cpl and was not carrying concealed, as a cpl obviously requires you to carry concealed! (sarcasm) He went back to his car and called the prosecutor on his cell phone. Then he came back and let me go about my business.

    Just because it was not an issue in my particular situation, doesn't mean an officer and prosecutor may not make an issue out of it somewhere else or at a different time.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-09-2010 at 03:50 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    , the penalty if found guilty of violating 750.234d is a felony.


    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.


    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


    234d penalties are misdemeanors, were you referring to 750.231a?

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Near Lapeer (Hadley), Michigan, USA
    Posts
    932
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.


    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.


    234d penalties are misdemeanors, were you referring to 750.231a?
    my mistake. thanks for keeping me on my toes. I had the wrong number in my brain, the mcl i was meant to reference:

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

    Sec. 227.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 09-09-2010 at 03:48 PM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  25. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Me too, lol. I thought 227 for a sec, then settled on 231.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •