Disclosure and/or giving ID

malignity · Sep 8, 2010

I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.

dougwg · Sep 8, 2010

Yes, it's been covered here before.

Generally most here believe that you would not legally need to disclose but it's not black and white IMHO (or at least not black and white enough for me)therefore I would disclose in that situation.

Remember, in that situation, there is much to lose and little to gain by not disclosing then doing so IMHO.

scot623 · Sep 8, 2010

I will disclose when the contacting officer is polite and professional. I have been asked for ID 4 times, I've given it once. The only time I didn't give ID when the officer was polite was during my first encounter with my local PD. I wanted to test my local PD to see where they stood on OC(not bad at that point, perfect now). That being said, I would use my criteria in a PFZ also. Though I much more inclined to produce ID if in a PFZ. If I have a jackbooted thug in front of me demanding ID, I will not produce it, I don't care where I'm at. To each their own, though.

lapeer20m · Sep 8, 2010

An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

I challenge you to find an mcl that requires you to disclose while open carrying, or to produce id or cpl, or even requires you to have id/cpl in your possession.

however, as dr todd pointed out using case law (albeit from a federal case in another state) an officer may be correct in detaining you and it would then be your responsibility to prove that you have an exemption which allows you to possess a firearm on those premises.

Venator · Sep 8, 2010

malignity said:
I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.

If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.

Bronson · Sep 8, 2010

dougwg said:
Yes, it's been covered here before.

Generally most here believe that you would not legally need to disclose but it's not black and white IMHO (or at least not black and white enough for me)therefore I would disclose in that situation.

Remember, in that situation, there is much to lose and little to gain by not disclosing then doing so IMHO.

This for me also.

Bronson

1245A Defender · Sep 8, 2010

.

Venator said:
If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.

i agree here, its all about RAS, if the cop wants ID just cause you have a gun, WRONG!
if he says PFZ and CPL required, then he has some legit authority to check.

malignity · Sep 8, 2010

Sounds good. I figured it wasn't so black and white either, thus the post. I guess I'll just handle it when it comes.

Made me wonder cause I was in CVS today and though I don't think anyone noticed I was even carrying, it still made me think 'hmm..'

fozzy71 · Sep 8, 2010

Semi-related: If you are OC'ing on a bicycle and are approached by an officer in a cop car, do you disclose you have a CPL? I did, as I didnt feel like being case law. :uhoh:

lapeer20m · Sep 8, 2010

I have yet to find an mcl that requires disclosure of cpl while oc'ing....period! even on motorcycle or bicycle.

it is ok to disclose at anytime, but it is only required if you are carrying a concealed pistol.

not carrying a pistol = no duty to disclose
not concealing a pistol = no duty to disclose
open carrying = no duty to disclose
open carrying in pfz = no duty to disclose

carrying a concealed pistol = duty to disclose

mcl: 28.425o

stainless1911 · Sep 8, 2010

On a bike, I would say no, you do not have to disclose. The officer needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you have committed a crime to detain you.
Does riding a bike mean that you probably have committed a crime? I say that it does not. Just like an officer cannot just pull you over in a car to see if you have a drivers license, he/she cannot stop and ask for ID because you were on a bike.

In this country, the default position is supposed to be to assume innocence until guilt is proven. Therefore, if you are seen not doing anything wrong, it is the governments responsibility to leave you alone.

Bailenforcer · Sep 9, 2010

Yes in that case I would, you would be skating on very think ice with your CPL in my humble opinion.

malignity said:
I've never had a run-in with any LE that's given me any sort of grief, however if the time comes, I want to be prepared.

I know most of you refuse to give ID and do not disclose when OCing. Since those tactics work and I don't plan on fixing it if it ain't broke, I've planned on following suit were I ever to come across that situation.

My question is this however: Say I'm in a place that I cannot OC without a CPL, but I'm in a place that I CAN carry with a CPL. (For example CVS. They sell alcohol and have a liquor license. Can't OC there unless you have a CPL) I could almost understand having 'reasonable suspicion' due to the fact that without a CPL I cannot carry there, and he could probably detain me to check to see if I had such documentation on my person.

In a location such as this, am I required to give ID and CPL upon request since I could in fact be 'the bad guy' if I didn't have my CPL?

This has probably been covered before, but it's always good to rehash old material.

Bailenforcer · Sep 9, 2010

Even though no officer has ever stopped me while OC I also would gauge his attitude somewhat to gauge mine, ot allow him/her to set the rules of engagement. I am normally as sweet as pie, but when someone tries to pee in my corn flakes look out.

scot623 said:
I will disclose when the contacting officer is polite and professional. I have been asked for ID 4 times, I've given it once. The only time I didn't give ID when the officer was polite was during my first encounter with my local PD. I wanted to test my local PD to see where they stood on OC(not bad at that point, perfect now). That being said, I would use my criteria in a PFZ also. Though I much more inclined to produce ID if in a PFZ. If I have a jackbooted thug in front of me demanding ID, I will not produce it, I don't care where I'm at. To each their own, though.

ghostrider · Sep 9, 2010

1245A Defender said:
i agree here, its all about RAS, if the cop wants ID just cause you have a gun, WRONG!
if he says PFZ and CPL required, then he has some legit authority to check.

We've heard officers say that OC in a CEZ is RAS because a CPL is required.

Problem with that excuse is, "We've also know that they know that criminals rarely (if ever) use holsters, or OC." We also know that criminals, and felons are unlikely to OC. At this point in the "movement", It would be a rarity for someone to OC and not know that they need a CPL to do so in a CEZ. Hope the lawyer who ever goes after this one keeps that in mind. They can/will use any excuse they can think of for RAS (remember the restaurant where the police stated the reason for detaining was that, "OC is suspicious"?). All they are doing is spreading propaganda to extend their power base. Kind of like that "...tell a lie enough times..."

Michigander · Sep 9, 2010

MCL 28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
(4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
(5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
(a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
(b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
(6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
(7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
(b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
(8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

stainless1911 said:
On a bike, I would say no, you do not have to disclose. The officer needs reasonable suspicion or probable cause that you have committed a crime to detain you. .

I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.

The time to address an illegal stop is after it happens, and maybe during the stop if you call 911 and ask for the MSP, ormaybe call your lawyer. But it is DEFINITELY a good idea to hand over ID when stopped and CCing OR riding in a car or on a bike with a handgun anything but encased and unloaded in your trunk. They'll figure it out anyway if they run your plates or take your gun.

For the record, I have not and will not ever disclose for OCing in a CEZ, because like Lapeer I can't find any reason to.

DrTodd · Sep 9, 2010

Venator said:
If the officer stated that you need a cpl to possess a handgun in this area and asked if I have a CPL then I would state I have one. IF he asks to see it I most likely would produce it. BUT if he just wanted ID and never mentions it's a PFZ then I may not. As others have stated it's not B&W and would need to be handled on a case by case.

This is what I would do also.

autosurgeon · Sep 9, 2010

What DrTodd and Venator said!

Venator · Sep 9, 2010

Michigander said:
MCL 28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
Sec. 5f.
(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
(4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
(5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
(a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
(b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
(6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
(7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
(b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
(8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.

The time to address an illegal stop is after it happens, and maybe during the stop if you call 911 and ask for the MSP, ormaybe call your lawyer. But it is DEFINITELY a good idea to hand over ID when stopped and CCing OR riding in a car or on a bike with a handgun anything but encased and unloaded in your trunk. They'll figure it out anyway if they run your plates or take your gun.

For the record, I have not and will not ever disclose for OCing in a CEZ, because like Lapeer I can't find any reason to.

What do you disclose when OCing? The disclosure portion was put in place to inform officers that you were armed when they couldn't tell by looking at you if you were or not (generally in a vehicle.). OCing removes all doubt. So my thinking is if you are OCing you do not have to disclose you are carrying concealed (you do if you have a concealed BUG).

lapeer20m · Sep 9, 2010

I agree about RAS, but that does not alter the fact that the above MCL on disclosure is considered a gray area with 2 wheeled vehicle carry. It is not smart to go around riding without a CPL and the willingness to disclose it, unless you have a lot of money for lawyers, and patience for courts.

???

I am a little slow sometimes, so help me understand......how does 28.425f apply to open carry on a bicycle or motorcycle? (or any open carry for that matter?)

(3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

when i read that, it clearly indicates that you only have duty to disclose when you are in fact carrying a concealed pistol. I still maintain that if open carrying, you have no duty to disclose.

I do believe that you get more flies with honey, and it is perfectly ok to disclose and produce cpl during an oc encounter, but legally it appears very black and white that you are only required to disclose when actually carrying concealed, or having a concealed pistol in your vehicle. ie: pistol in your glovebox, under the seat, even worn owb oc in the car because the pistol is hidden between you and the center consol, (the way i read it, even unloaded pistol in a case in the trunk would require disclosure with cpl)

open carry on a bike is open carry.

am i misreading the mcl? I have been known to miss some very obvious things from time to time.

Big Gay Al · Sep 9, 2010

Well, you can probably get away with OCing on a bicycle and not disclosing, however, the requirement to have a CPL if carrying in a vehicle, doesn't say automobile, it says "motor vehicle" of which a motorcycle would be classified as a motor vehicle.

And even though it is visible, you'll have to decide whether or not you want to be the next test case.

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