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Thread: Defensive Shooting Question

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Defensive Shooting Question

    One defensive drill I practice is, at short range, drawing (from OC hip holster) and firing immediately from the hip, then bringing up the gun for a double tap while backing away from the target/threat.

    Here's my question: when shooting from the hip, where on the body should one aim? My normal target would be upper torso, which would place the bullet trajectory on an upward angle. This could be ideal if in a crowd, as it would get the bullet above the crowd quickly. However, we all know that it must come down, and this is obviously an unlikely scenario.

    So where should I practice placing the round from the hip?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    if!

    if your shot is on the mark? how close is the BG? the closer, the higher the trajectory.
    if the shot passes thru? are you shooting hollow point ammo?
    how much energy is left over?
    after the hip shot, you plan to double tap an aimed shot. now your shots are aimed at the crowd.

    Beware the back stop!!
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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    230gr .45 hollowpoints. If I am shooting from the hip the BG will be VERY close (maybe 10 feet maximum).

    Perhaps I should have put less information in the OP. The scenario given was pulled out of a dark place, and is extremely unlikely even in the case of having a need to shoot.

    The question remains, where is the best place to aim when shooting from the hip?

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    This is called "shooting from retention."

    It is a critical skill for when a target would be within arms reach of your firearm were you to extend your arm.

    If you are training for this, aim center mass(solar plexus). In practice, keep your off-hand tight against your body. Understand, that in REAL LIFE if someone is this close, you may be pushing them back WHILE shooting them, so DO NOT try to practice head shots or anything close to the head.

    When you draw keep your elbow/arm TIGHT against your body. (this will allow for repetitive accuracy from the hip. Allowing your elbow to 'float' will cause you to pull your shot in fight/flight scenario, due to a natural increase in speed causing an over-travel of your draw)

    IMPORTANT - You MUST learn to CANT your firearm 45* away from your body(halfway to gangsta style). This will prevent the slide from catching on your clothing.

    When you draw back, do so far enough that your WRIST touches your body. Keep your wrist locked straight. YOU WILL NEED TO USE YOUR UPPER BODY to adjust side to side.

    If you are dead on to your target, you may find this will have your gun pointed either right or left of your target. Depending on which direction, you can train to simultaniously take a step back with one foot, putting your shot on target.

    When you transition to a two handed stance during your retreat, pull your off-hand to your chest(all the way) before bringing your gun up to high tension, then extend.

    I know it sounds like many steps, but when you start practicing it, you'll discover how it becomes easy as you only have to move your body and not your gun.(locking your gun-arm REDUCES the pivot points of the body.)
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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    DAMN that was an informative post.

    Thanks simmonsjoe, that's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I'm already doing several of those, and I think the remainder can be incorporated fairly easily. When I started it, I was doing a straight draw, but quickly discovered the 45 degree angle was more stable than just trying to float the gun off my side. The main changes I'll need to make are my secondary hand placement and keeping my wrist locked, using my body to pivot.

    Thanks again for the info! I award you four dancing bananas:

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Don't back up if at all possible! You don't know what obstacles are behind you and the one place you do not want to find yourself is on your butt!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Why would you want to aim at the solar plexus? There are no really vitalorgans there, and even if the bullet struck the spinal cord it's pretty far down and the arms/fingers would still work.

    Center of mass (COM) is a strange creature, as you really are talking about trying for a hit in the area bounded to the south by a line drawn across the nipples and to the north by the eyebrows. East and west are generally vertical lines at each nipple. Within that box you will find most of the vital organs that will cause sufficient blood loss in sufficient time to stop the threat, as well as connections to the central nervous system high enough to shut down use of the arms/fingers.

    COM is NOT the bulls eye commonly found at the center of a silhouette target, which is not where you want to shoot unless you are shooting a strange version of bullseye target shooting.

    Look at http://www.thompsontarget.com/pages/...etargets3.html - some of the best anatomical targets available as they show the vital organs and have targets that give you other than straight-on views. (No, I have no financial interest other than wishing they were less expensive.)

    stay safe.

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    Center of Mass is a mathematical concept that provides a "weighted" average location of all of the bits of mass in a body--weighted by those individual masses. There is no formal definition of this concept as it applies to shooting human beings.

    Mass actually works against stopping power. Muscle mass and bone tend to protect the "bleedy parts." So, rather than averaging the locations using mass as the weighting factor, averaging the locations using probable lethality as the weighting factor would be more useful. Also the locations that are averaged should be the two-dimensional locations based on the how the target body faces you. That would mean that depth is only considered as a mitigating factor, lessening the probable lethality because of the amount of meat that has to be penetrated to hit a vital spot.

    When we calculate this spot, let's call it the center of vitality, or COV. Now, aiming for COV does not guarantee a hit at the COV. So, what I would recommend is selecting the largest possible circle that includes actual body of the target (not air) and also contains the COV and aim for the center of that circle. I suspect the center of that circle will be slightly below the COV.

    Now, barring a federal grant, I am not prepared to do the math on this one. However, we can rough it out.

    First, I would ignore the head. To allow the head to impact the center of vitality would raise the COV to a point that would not allow for a very large circle containing that COV without including a lot of air on either side of the neck. By ignoring the head (or, as many targets do, treating it as its own mass), clearly the COV would be somewhere along the breast bone. Drawing the largest circle that pretty much excludes air and includes the COV, you get a target that runs from side to side and from neck to about halfway between the naval and bottom of the breastbone. The center of this target area would be slightly below the actual COV, but allows for the greatest margin of error.

    Not all hits in this area will be lethal, but about 50% of the area has some really vital stuff in it. If you are confident in your ability to hit a smaller target, you could choose a smaller circle, with the COV closer to the center of your circle. In other words, you would actually be shooting at the COV, not slightly below it.

    This is the idea that runs through my mind when I hear COM in reference to shooting a person.

    Now, if President Obama could cut loose with some stimulus money, I can get this study shovel-ready in days.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    One defensive drill I practice is, at short range, drawing (from OC hip holster) and firing immediately from the hip, then bringing up the gun for a double tap while backing away from the target/threat.
    I've seen the same from several LEOs at local ranges, primarily as a means of defeating a weapons grab at close range. Good you for you! You obviously have some training behind you.

    Here's my question: when shooting from the hip, where on the body should one aim? My normal target would be upper torso, which would place the bullet trajectory on an upward angle. This could be ideal if in a crowd, as it would get the bullet above the crowd quickly. However, we all know that it must come down, and this is obviously an unlikely scenario.

    So where should I practice placing the round from the hip?
    (Sigh) it's a crapshoot. Continue to aim for center body mass. Hit your target and 95% of the energy will be expended at your target.

    Think of it this way: Some perp has voluntarily decided to break the law and engage in unlawful acts which endanger the lives of others. Whether or not he or shee ever intended to pull the trigger is immaterial. He or she is a person with a drawn weapon, threatening to use it in the extermination of innocent lives.

    I'd given 'em a very solid "DROP IT! DROP YOUR WEAPON NOW!" command, and would even repeat it endlessly, provided they didn't point their weapon in an unsafe direction.

    If the latter occurred, however, I'd drop them on the spot.

    Keep it holstered, folks, and work things out through normal means - discussion, mediation, arbitration, and the courts - all the way through the chain to the SCOTUS).

    Back to the bullet question, research and use bullets with maximum impact with minimum penetration.

    I currently carry Winchester Ranger XLTs. If they ever do manage to penetrate a perp's chest, whatever remains of the fragments should be largely spent.

    But I am seriously considering Winchester's Bonded PDX1. According to their flyer, "chosen by the FBI as their primary service round, is now available in a full line of popular handgun calibers. The Bonded PDX1 is engineered to maximize terminal ballistics, as defined by the demanding FBI test protocol, which simulates real-world threats."

    Meaning governmental law enforcement has a vested interest in stopping the bad guys while minimizing collateral damage.

    So do I!

    So should you.

    (sigh)

    The question their endorsement brings to mind is that it's enough to bring the perps down while leaving unjacketed FBI guys relatively unaffected.

    You know what? I don't care! Whether you people realize it or not, the FBI are on OUR SIDE. I'm not talking about gun ownership issues - I'm talking about protecting our nation against subversive influences, interests, and acts contrary to the same dang Constitution I swore to uphold many years ago.

    If I EVER (not likely) found myself in an interrogation situation, I would simply shut my mouth, ask for paper and penciel, and copies of the Constitution, all amendments, and a complete copy of state law. And then, having reviewed hundreds of thousands of lines of code, having taken copious notes, I'd ask for a lawyer.

    But that's me...
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Center of Mass is a mathematical concept that provides a "weighted" average location of all of the bits of mass in a body--weighted by those individual masses. There is no formal definition of this concept as it applies to shooting human beings.
    Wrong. It's the principle mass as observed by most human beings, and largely corresponds with critical life-support organs such as heart, liver, pancreas, and spine.

    Let's simplify the situation a bit, shall we? Someone is CLEARLY (and that's a key word, here) attempting to deprive you of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. It's up to you to KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS.

    I'm not saying "don't defend yourself. I am saying, "follow the law."
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Please don't tell me that I am wrong. I am a math and physics teacher. I know what the formal mathematical definition of "center of mass" is.

    There is no accepted formal definition when it comes to shooting a human being, so I explained how I take the mathematical concept and turn it into a useful concept in a shooting situation. If you don't like my opinion of how to apply the concept to shooting, feel free to disagree. But, to say that formal mathematical definition or my opinion on how to apply it to shooting is wrong is arrogant.

    Moving on.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Wrong. It's the principle mass as observed by most human beings, and largely corresponds with critical life-support organs such as heart, liver, pancreas, and spine.
    Eye95 can not be wrong, I mean he absolutely can not be wrong. If you don't believe me, ASK HIM YOURSELF.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    Don't back up if at all possible! You don't know what obstacles are behind you and the one place you do not want to find yourself is on your butt!
    "No Duty to Retreat" in our state, either. If you have a laser (properly sighted in), you don't have to worry about 'guessing' where that first round is going. Unless you jerk the trigger, you KNOW where its going. Another advantage of having the Crimson Trace is being able to shoot without bringing the pistol up to eye-level. It took a LOT of practice to refine new techniques. I've been an old fashioned "Sight Alignment & Trigger Control" kinda guy for over 30 years, so using a laser is quite different. Don't ever lose your basic skills, though. Just add more tools to your tool box.
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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    math..

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Please don't tell me that I am wrong. I am a math and physics teacher. I know what the formal mathematical definition of "center of mass" is.

    There is no accepted formal definition when it comes to shooting a human being, so I explained how I take the mathematical concept and turn it into a useful concept in a shooting situation. If you don't like my opinion of how to apply the concept to shooting, feel free to disagree. But, to say that formal mathematical definition or my opinion on how to apply it to shooting is wrong is arrogant.

    Moving on.
    center of mass computations take too long to be used during a gun fight!!!
    maybe center of chest,, would be a better aim point!
    when i shoot a deer, i have time to think about math, but i dont, i just aim for the Big part,
    i always figured, that i would have the best chance of making a difference in that deers day.
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    In the tactical classes I have had, when retention shooting, the drill was to shoot as soon as the muzzle was pointed at the subject, then 'walk' the impacts up to 2nd button hole, then the T-zone if subject was still standing and considered a threat.

    The theory as explained to me was that the impacts on a male body were going to largely begin below his center of gravity and when passing into the abdominal cavity would likely damage any of several large arteries or veins, starting blood loss with the accompanying onset of shock. Along with this was the impact(s) that would also interfere with his center of balance and hopefully imped his forward progress.

    When this was further applied to the female body, there are massive arteries and veins in the lower abdomin (uterus) which could result in massive and quickly debilitating blood loss.

    As to whether or not to back up during a situation, it was largely dependent upon the area. We practiced retreat and advance during this exercise. For retreat, however, it was stressed to keep both feet on the ground, shuffling each foot back to minimize danger of tripping.

    While blood loss and onset of shock are not reliable methods of deterrance, they can be debilitating very quickly, so can be a method of stopping the subject. As the instructor said, "Don't shoot in the belly and then stop and wait for them to fall ... ain't gonna happen."

    And during all this, you should be moving to one side or the other in an attempt to increase the subject's difficulty in shooting/knifing you in return. And if you have loved ones to protect (probably behind you), you cannot retreat unless they are making tracks away from the danger. YMMV
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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input, everyone.

    To clarify on the "backing up" point-it has nothing to do with retreat, simply trying to distance myself from the target. Situational Awareness allows me to know if there is a hazard behind me, and I would use that information to decide whether or not to back up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    One defensive drill I practice is, at short range, drawing (from OC hip holster) and firing immediately from the hip, then bringing up the gun for a double tap while backing away from the target/threat.

    Here's my question: when shooting from the hip, where on the body should one aim? My normal target would be upper torso, which would place the bullet trajectory on an upward angle. This could be ideal if in a crowd, as it would get the bullet above the crowd quickly. However, we all know that it must come down, and this is obviously an unlikely scenario.

    So where should I practice placing the round from the hip?

    Read your own post here. Why on earth would you want to shoot from the hip in a crowd? You already addressed that you could wind up shooting over a crowd and obviously care about the consequences. You have absolutely no control over where that bullet is going and could easily hurt non-threats. Shoot IDPA or another defensive competition and you'll quickly find that hip shooting is NEVER a good idea. Think about the fundamentals of "aiming", technically a hip shoot IS NOT aiming in any sense of the word. It's actually point-shooting and from a weak stance and weak grip at that.

    Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot and should only be utilized in extreme close quarters where BG is attempting to wrestle your unholstered firearm away. (can you say B.U.G.?)

    That said, IF you're left with considering that as an option (it could happen after all couldn't it?), get a Crimson Trace unit and sight that thing in dead-nuts accurate. That little red dot can be a wake up call for some BG's and is nice to know that you're going to be putting the round right in that spot (unless you've knocked the laser out of alignment).
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 09-21-2010 at 03:10 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Please don't tell me that I am wrong. I am a math and physics teacher. I know what the formal mathematical definition of "center of mass" is.
    Yes, well, the barycenter definition (around one's belly-button) differs significantly from that used in putting someone down (in the heart). I suggest you adjust your radius of gyrations with your local ER medic/doctor who can tell you what does and doesn't work with respect to...

    Or just check with your local shooting range. They know what "center body mass" means when it comes to shooting.

    There is no accepted formal definition when it comes to shooting a human being...
    Actually, there are, hundreds, dating back to before 1200.

    ...but, to say that formal mathematical definition or my opinion on how to apply it to shooting is wrong is arrogant.
    Millions of dead people who've been defeated using these "archaic" ideas say you're dead wrong.[/QUOTE]

    Not to be mortific in this assessment! Just that you need to take classes ranging from ancient to modern warefare, all of which share a similar definition with respect to "center body mass."

    Hint: It's not below one's sternum. Unless one is approaching it from a physics perspective, in which case it's below one's belly button. But that has everything to do with physics and raidii of gyration, and absolutely nothing to do with self defense.

    - since9
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I believe and practice the idea that one shot stops with a handgun is silly fantasy. My favorite method of shooting at a clearly defined target is called "zipper shooting" or "vertical tracking", which is a method taught by the controversial and often insulted Mat Temkin, known for being a point shooting advocate.

    Zipper shooting is a one handed, no sights used method consisting of starting low at about the abdomen or a bit above, beginning blasting, and letting the recoil bring the gun up to head level as you keep going, all of the shooting happening in probably a 1.5 seconds or less. With a major caliber and hollow points, it's an extremely devastating method, easily capable of hitting the spine, then the heart, lungs and brain just as fast as you can pull the trigger. It's fast, deadly, and easy with minimal practice, and works well from hip fired positions or from a fully extended arm position. What I love about it most is that it keeps shots on target without even needing to recover from the recoil.

    I like to practice it where I draw up close, zipper 3-5 shots, then arm extened point shoot at a target further away, maybe 6-12 feet. Or on two targets at the same distance. Speaking of which, another benefit of it is that you have to lower the gun and bring it up along the line of the target, thereby making it much less likely that you'll over swing and miss the target completely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Yes, well, the barycenter definition (around one's belly-button) differs significantly from that used in putting someone down (in the heart). I suggest you adjust your radius of gyrations with your local ER medic/doctor who can tell you what does and doesn't work with respect to...

    Or just check with your local shooting range. They know what "center body mass" means when it comes to shooting.

    Actually, there are, hundreds, dating back to before 1200.

    Millions of dead people who've been defeated using these "archaic" ideas say you're dead wrong.

    Not to be mortific in this assessment! Just that you need to take classes ranging from ancient to modern warefare, all of which share a similar definition with respect to "center body mass."

    Hint: It's not below one's sternum. Unless one is approaching it from a physics perspective, in which case it's below one's belly button. But that has everything to do with physics and raidii of gyration, and absolutely nothing to do with self defense.

    - since9
    If you want to discuss my ideas on center of mass, please discuss what I said in my post on the subject. My post that you responded to was a response to a bit of antagonism.

    Despite my post factually representing the mathematical and scientific idea of center of mass, correctly acknowledging that there is no consensus on the meaning of the term in reference to the shooting of a human body, and presenting a probabilistic model that I thought would be useful in applying the idea of center of mass to shooting a human body, he felt the need to post the cogent and in-depth analysis that I was "wrong."

    I really am interested in your ideas on my original post rather than on a reply to a post that did not warrant an on-topic reply.
    Last edited by eye95; 09-22-2010 at 03:48 PM.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Read your own post here. Why on earth would you want to shoot from the hip in a crowd? You already addressed that you could wind up shooting over a crowd and obviously care about the consequences. You have absolutely no control over where that bullet is going and could easily hurt non-threats. Shoot IDPA or another defensive competition and you'll quickly find that hip shooting is NEVER a good idea. Think about the fundamentals of "aiming", technically a hip shoot IS NOT aiming in any sense of the word. It's actually point-shooting and from a weak stance and weak grip at that.

    Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot and should only be utilized in extreme close quarters where BG is attempting to wrestle your unholstered firearm away. (can you say B.U.G.?)

    That said, IF you're left with considering that as an option (it could happen after all couldn't it?), get a Crimson Trace unit and sight that thing in dead-nuts accurate. That little red dot can be a wake up call for some BG's and is nice to know that you're going to be putting the round right in that spot (unless you've knocked the laser out of alignment).
    It is sad, but I honestly believe Jeff Cooper, while well intentioned even if he stole others ideas and called them new, he had good intentions. But I don't believe in a lot of what he said. He was usually fixated on using the front sight. I have talked to exactly no one who has used a handgun in an actual shooting, be it simunitions or real world, and even had their brain allow them to use the sights. There are people out there who would claim this, but I have never met them in person.

    It is a well established fact that in a shooting, your brain will instinctively have you point shoot, particularly up close. The grip will be extremely tight, and all of the little minute techniques of a 2 handed grip will go out the way side in a real hurry, which seems to account for the 85% miss rate of police in real world shootings.

    Your criticism of hip firing also doesn't take into account that at 2-6' or so, which is roughly the distance of what you can expect in a SD shooting with a handgun, you will instinctively go to hip firing to retain your handgun. Not having practiced to do so would be especially dangerous in a crowd, because a crowd would be a place where your insincts would probably be screaming at you to hip fire.

    In praciticing to contradict your instincts, you do yourself a disservice. In preaching to contradict your instincts, you can unknowingly put lives in danger. This is the problem with what I might call the "front sight mentality". Certainly I'm not insulting sight picture shooting, but I believe it should be recognized that it is the exception, not the rule to combat shooting with handguns, particularly in non police circumstances where the goal is merely survival and evasion.

    I say these things not in an attempt to be abrasive, and if it comes off that way, I apologize. It is something I take more seriously than most.
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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Even most LEOs will tell you that the hip shoot is literally a crap-shoot.....
    That's probably because most LEO's (all but 2 of them that I know) only shoot when they must qualify. Their running joke is that most citizens shoot better than most LEOs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodbender View Post
    That's probably because most LEO's (all but 2 of them that I know) only shoot when they must qualify. Their running joke is that most citizens shoot better than most LEOs.
    SOME LE Agencies PRACTICE "hip shooting". At the 3-yard line, Our course of fire started with "2 rounds, 3 seconds", 2 rounds, 3 seconds, 4 rounds, 10 seconds with a magazine change".
    Now, I'll describe the sequence: For this part of the course, we were using magazines loaded with 6 rounds. Do the math; you shoot 2 rounds, three times and have to reload and shoot 2 more from the next magazine before the third string of fire is complete. Each string begins with a holstered pistol. The first round is double action, and obviously, the second was single action. Before holstering the pistol, we "decocked" and then took the pistol off safe again. We carried the Beretta 92FS with a round in the chamber, hammer down and safety off.

    At that time, all 3-yard line shooting was done from the hip, without sights. You didn't start using your sights until the 7-yard line. At the 15 yard line, we used strong and weak-side barricade positions and a kneeling low barricade. At 25 yards, we used both barricade and non-barricade positions. The course of fire was done on the Trans-Tar II target and was a 50-round course. Minimum score to qualify was 187 out of a possible 250.

    I always thought the requirements were fairly low, but I was amazed how poorly LEO's from other agencies did on our course. I did my best to keep my people shooting in the 230-240 range. Other instructors and I would be merciless on any fellow instructor that shot less than 245. Most of us shot 247 or better.

    Regardless of caliber, Shot placement is EVERYTHING! I know some people that CC a .22 cal derringer with complete confidence. They firmly believe if the SHTF, they will have no trouble putting one or both rounds from their .22 into the eye-socket or other important point of a BG's brain-bucket. Lights Out.

    I've found the Mozambique Drill to be the best self-defense drill. If you can put 2 rounds in the CHEST (5-ring of the TransTar II target) and then one round in the brainbucket, your BG won't have much (if any) fight left in him. Again... SHOT PLACEMENT is everything. This "zipper method" sounds like something out of a Mack Bolan novel. Mozambique has been proven to work... I don't know anyone that disagrees. I have some friends that use 3" x 5" index cards for targets. If you can hit a 3" x 5" card on a regular basis, then you're probably going to come out ok. If you can't, then you better spend more time at the range with a QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, not Uncle Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob that may (or may not) really know what he's talking about...
    <stepping off soap box now>

    SOME LE agencies are more proficient than others at marksmanship. When I went to the National Matches at Camp Perry, the Border Patrol Team always finished well.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    This "zipper method" sounds like something out of a Mack Bolan novel. Mozambique has been proven to work... I don't know anyone that disagrees.
    I would say that both techniques are similar, except my understanding of the mozabique drill is that you carefully aim for the head after assessing your first 2 shots to the chest. With the vertical tracking, there is no stopping or re-assessing, you merely decide to shoot at the chest and head from the beginning, and do so very fast without any pause.

    In either case, it's probably the ideas behind the techniques that are different, much more so than the actual ways they are conducted under stress.
    Last edited by Michigander; 09-22-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I was never taught "assess the results of my first 2 shots", nor did I teach that method in the Mozambique. I started with emphasis on marksmanship, then on speed. Accuracy is far more important that speed. 3 shots quickly and accurately, THEN assess the situation, repeat as necessary.

    I know someone that CC'd a Seecamp .32 cal. He was forced to defend himself with it once. It was in close quarters; He made a single shot into the BG's eye. BG dropped like a sack of potatoes. Not a pretty sight. He's probably still seeing a therapist, but he's alive. He never even felt the trigger squeeze, even though Seecamps have a legendary heavy trigger.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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